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War declared, Israel v Palestine...

Finnegan said:
You have attempted to portray the axis of Europe/ United States/ Israel as representing European Enlightenment in opposition to an irrational and intrinsically uncivilised Islam- and that is a racist position whether consciously adopted or otherwise. My understanding, that you deem as limited, is sufficient to convince me that the State of Israel represents nothing other than a racist, settler-colonial state predicated on the subjugation of the Palestinians. After more than 140 pages of this thread I have not moderated this position, nor am I likely to. Your position has not changed either. So I reaffirm the conviction that, as far as this topic is concerned, there is little to be gained through constantly rehearsing the same argument to each other.
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OK, so you suggest that you continue to repeat your same argument, and I continue to repeat my same argument, but that there is "little to be gained" by our doing so in response to each other's posts. But I thought this thread was a discussion, a debate. Perhaps for you this is not the case?

You also suggest that if I prefer "European Enlightenment" to what you yourself describe as "an irrational and intrinsically uncivilised Islam," your words, not mine, I am a "racist."
Just to be clear, I prefer democracy to dictatorship. I prefer a secular society with freedom of religion to a theocratic, obscurantist society. Don't you?
 
mandryka said:
Anything interesting to read about this, Sean?

I've heard similar ideas before, maybe from you in fact, I can't remember.

So far we have three conjectures to explain the establishment response to what's happening in the middle east:

1. Politicians in the pockets of ethno-nationalist settler colonial Zionists and their supporters.
2. Strategic interests. The establishment is just maximising the well being of their own states.
3. Prep (possibly soft power prep) for plans to deal with human migration as global warming evolves.
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As well as Tony's point you have to bear in mind that everything's being filtered through the contingencies of domestic politics. So in the UK, the Labour right's priorities are to troll the left and impress the security services, while the Tory-fash continuum is mostly concerned with ramping up islamophobia and waging war on woke institutions. I doubt any of them understand the war except in relation to these preoccupations.

What's key is that these are not serious people: it's hard to imagine them having a clear sense of their own national interests, let alone those of the international rules-based order. They're just cosplaying statesmanship, taking their cues from political biographies and general vibes, and drifting ever further to the right.
 
Seanm said:
As well as Tony's point you have to bear in mind that everything's being filtered through the contingencies of domestic politics. So in the UK, the Labour right's priorities are to troll the left and impress the security services, while the Tory-fash continuum is mostly concerned with ramping up islamophobia and waging war on woke institutions. I doubt any of them understand the war except in relation to these preoccupations.

What's key is that these are not serious people: it's hard to imagine them having a clear sense of their own national interests, let alone those of the international rules-based order. They're just cosplaying statesmanship, taking their cues from political biographies and general vibes, and drifting ever further to the right.
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Yes, sure, I think there‘s a lot of truth in what you’re saying. At the moment Europe and the USA are making gestures. Condemning and supporting with words are performances in a sort of dance of verbal gestures. When a prime minister or a prime-minister-in-waiting utters “I support Israel’s actions” he communicates ”In my opinion Arab foreigners are expendable and I am not one of those soft lefties who care about their human rights .” The decision whether to condemn or not will have an effect on whether other people in the ritual see you as aligned or not with their values. Politicians will take that into account when they decide what to say.

But there’s more to it than that. Europe and America are not only making verbal gestures. For example the decisions not to intervene / boycott etc are not speech acts. Maybe they are all so un-serious that they really don’t care, or have completely muddled thinking about it. Maybe they have thought it through and decided it’s best, at least the ones at the top - Biden, Macron, Sunak. After all, everyone can see the horror of what’s going on, the seriousness of what’s going on.

But now I must do other things, so can’t develop my thinking.
 
How can anyone condone the indiscriminate killing of innocents in the name of eliminating Hamas? From the BBC:

The BBC has verified two videos from two separate blasts reported today at schools run by the UN in Gaza.

One extremely graphic video, filmed at an elementary school in the Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza, shows the aftermath, first outside the main gate of the school and then in the main courtyard.

At least 20 people, either dead or injured, can be seen on the ground, including men, women and children.
 
From yesterday but I don't think I've seen on this thread. Twitter thread and Graun article that disputes Israel's claim of trying to avoid buildings collapsing in Jabalia. The article claims that specific munitions were selected with the express intention of collapsing buildings.

IDF spox said cavities seen in images of destroyed camp buildings were created by the collapse of Hamas tunnels BUT weapons experts told us they were left by the use of multiple JDAMs – joint direct attack munitions – in the Israeli airstrike.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1719826192658792642
 
Finnegan said:
Sorry bud, but I’m a wee bit banjaxed by what your jeremiad attempted to address/ refute/ deny/ assert/argue. And I’m really unclear who the “you” is who “denounced the white tribe.”

My point is that Ashkenazi Jews historically dominated political, economic and social life in Israel, and were historically secular in comparison to other sects such as the Mizrahi and the Sephardic. These more observant sects were frequently less segregated from Palestinians. The Ashkenazi often adopted condescending, if not outright racist, attitudes to these other groups. That their influence has been eroded in recent times does not refute history.

The State of Israel claims to speak for all Jews, yet is riven with tension, conflict and even racism within its own society. The sight of Israeli police battering Orthodox Jews off the street gives lie to the conceit of the State of Israel claiming to represent all strands of Jewish opinion. And makes a mockery of the religious claim that all Jews are resisting Arab terrorism in order to fulfil biblical prophecy.

Those are the points I made and I stand by them.
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Howdy
First I am not sure what the "mood" of your beginning sentence is as I do not know some of the slang? you use, I assume it's not too unfriendly.

Otherwise, let me summarize your post this way:
"
1. I am not relating to any of the points you raised (that showed that orthodox religious are a group which has had huge power for many years.)
2. To prove my point I have brought a clip of police violence towards orthodox religious".
3. And even if you are right today, historically I am right.
"

Re 1, how about relating to what I actually wrote?

Re 2, is the level of discussion this low? let me save you hundreds of clips where secular ashkenazi are beaten much harder. Or should I bring you a clip of an English policeman hitting a Chelsea fan e.g. and deduce stuff from that?

Re 3, History is such a sweet thing. When those secular Ashkenazi started the zionist movement, Brittania ruled the world and was the grandmother of all rogue states. It wasn't a state, it was half the world serving and dying for brittons. Should we count deaths? And later, historically it was Brittania who laid the solid foundations to what the middle east is today. So?
 
Finnegan said:
Just to emphasise that this really is not about religion, and that the largely secular Ashkenazis look down upon more observant sects with a quasi-racism, footage of Israeli police- that’s the police of the “Jewish state of Israel”- knocking seven shades of shit out of Orthodox Jews who had the temerity to question the actions of the IDF.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1719745919011213714
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Yes but, the IDF officers are still very likely Jews. So if they can treat people of their own religion with such brutality with impunity, what chance do members of other religions (who they've been told since birth want to exterminate them) have?

This conflict very definitely is entrenched in religion. On both sides, religion is fundamental to the way they think. I don't believe for a second that Israel's ruling polititians don't believe in their statements that Islam only exists to destroy Israel (which you have to remember as far as they are concerned is a Jewish state). To them destroying Israel is a synonym for destroying Jews. Hence their continuous reference to the Holocaust. Yes they are right wing supremists, but are Jewish right wing supremists. Being Jewish is intrinsic to their very being, and their entire belief system and the way they think. Same is true for Hamas and Islam.

To be clear, I'm not saying all Jews or all Muslims are supporters of the Israeli govs/states or Hamas's actions. But the Israeli gov/state and Hamas's actions are very much because they are Jews/Muslims. The situation in the middle east is not one of simply an Israeli state occupying Arab lands etc. Religion is very definitely influencing behaviours on both sides.

In exactly the same way that a definite influence in the US/UK invasion of Iraq was the fact that Bush/Blair were devout Christians. Either consciously or subconsciously it informed their view of Muslims and therefore their decision to treat a Muslim country the way they did. I'm absolutely convinced of that.
 
omers said:
Howdy
First I am not sure what the "mood" of your beginning sentence is as I do not know some of the slang? you use, I assume it's not too unfriendly.

Otherwise, let me summarize your post this way:
"
1. I am not relating to any of the points you raised (that showed that orthodox religious are a group which has had huge power for many years.)
2. To prove my point I have brought a clip of police violence towards orthodox religious".
3. And even if you are right today, historically I am right.
"

Re 1, how about relating to what I actually wrote?

Re 2, is the level of discussion this low? let me save you hundreds of clips where secular ashkenazi are beaten much harder. Or should I bring you a clip of an English policeman hitting a Chelsea fan e.g. and deduce stuff from that?

Re 3, History is such a sweet thing. When those secular Ashkenazi started the zionist movement, Brittania ruled the world and was the grandmother of all rogue states. It wasn't a state, it was half the world serving and dying for brittons. Should we count deaths? And later, historically it was Brittania who laid the solid foundations to what the middle east is today. So?
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I have no idea what you’re point you’re trying to make.
 
ks.234 said:
Interesting programme by Rory Stewart essentially about the creation of borders. The programme focuses on the Scottish border but has relevance to the Middle East.

Hadrian’s Wall is essentially a more or less arbitrarily drawn straight line drawn for political purposes, but it turned a wide sweep of what Stewart calls ‘middleland’ with all it’s complexity into two distinct and competing entities. Hadrian’s Wall created an enemy and a permanent threat.

The Middle East was similarly divided by ill informed officials with a crayon and a ruler.

It took 600 years to bring an uneasy peace between arbitrarily divided territories, let’s hope it doesn’t take as long for a resolution in Isreal.

www.bbc.co.uk

BBC Two - Border Country: The Story of Britain's Lost Middleland

Two-part series exploring the border country created by the building of Hadrian's Wall.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
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The middle east wasn't unique in receiving this treatement. The entire contintent of Africa suffered it too. There have been decades of conflict within the continent because of it, and many thousands of lives lost. Interestingly nobody in Europe or the US has ever seemed to give a damn about those conflicts.
 
gavreid said:

Was Netanyahu right on Jewish scripture he quoted?​

PM Netanyahu quoted Jewish scripture to justify Israel’s actions in Gaza. However, this rabbi says Netanyahu is wrong.
Watch the discussion below:

www.aljazeera.com

Israel-Hamas war updates: Israel says its forces surround Gaza City

These were the updates on the Israel-Hamas war for Thursday, November 2.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com
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Is it surprising? Muslims the world over have been telling everyone that Islamic extremists are not true Muslims, they are misinterpreting Islamic scripture to their own distorted world view. Should we be at all surprised that similarly radical Jewish extremists are doing the same thing?

The massive and hugely significant difference between the two however is that the Jewish extremists have the almost unfettered support of the US, UK and other nations.
 
stevec67 said:
There's absolutely no way that M&S would post that ad intentionally depicting the colours of a Palestine flag. They're a commercial organisation with everything to lose and little to gain by such a gesture. Yeah, yeah, they're Jewish owned. I know. Big deal. It's just another example of manufactured outrage by people wanting to be on the right side on an argument.
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They are not Jewish owned.
It’s a PLC owned by shareholders.
 
gez said:
Is it surprising? Muslims the world over have been telling everyone that Islamic extremists are not true Muslims, they are misinterpreting Islamic scripture to their own distorted world view. Should we be at all surprised that similarly radical Jewish extremists are doing the same thing?

The massive and hugely significant difference between the two however is that the Jewish extremists have the almost unfettered support of the US, UK and other nations.
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True. But the Muslim extremists, who are a global force to be reckoned with, not just a few nutters, not only Hamas but those in Afghanistan, Boko Haram, Isis, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, etc, have the support of Iran, Qatar, and in various ways of Lebanon, Syria, Russia and China. And vast popular support in countries with a Muslim population and fragile dictatorships.This is what frightens me, half the world ranged against the other half.
 
gez said:
The middle east wasn't unique in receiving this treatement. The entire contintent of Africa suffered it too. There have been decades of conflict within the continent because of it, and many thousands of lives lost. Interestingly nobody in Europe or the US has ever seemed to give a damn about those conflicts.
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But I didn’t say that the Middle East was unique. Yes Africa suffered it too, and so did India and any number of other countries. But the fact that very similar problems arise where there has been colonialism and or imperialism would suggest that it is colonialism that is the primary cause of the problems in these areas, it is imperial ambitions that first raise the question of ‘who’s land?’ Yes, Religion then provides easy, simplistic answers that appeal to a higher authority, but it is empire building that raises the question
 
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Israel seems to have begun mass forced 'deportation' of Palestinians:

Thousands ‘returned’ to Gaza​

Witnesses quoted by Reuters said the number of Palestinian workers and labourers who were being sent back from Israel and the occupied West Bank was in the thousands.
Earlier this week, we reported thousands of workers from Gaza, who were employed in Israel when the war started, had gone missing since then, amid a campaign of mass arrests.
Human rights groups and trade unions believe some of the workers were illegally detained in military facilities in the occupied West Bank, following the revocation of their permits to work in Israel.

"We’re getting reports that a large number of Palestinian workers are being returned to the Gaza Strip through the Israeli-controlled Karem Abu Salem (Kerem Shalom) crossing east of Rafah."

www.aljazeera.com

Israel-Hamas war updates: Israeli strike hits Gaza medical convoy

These were the updates on the Israel-Hamas war for Friday, November 3.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com
 
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