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War declared, Israel v Palestine...

ks.234 said:
But I didn’t say that the Middle East was unique. Yes Africa suffered it too, and so did India and any number of other countries. But the fact that very similar problems arise where there has been colonialism and or imperialism would suggest that it is colonialism that is the primary cause of the problems in these areas, it is imperial ambitions that first raise the question of ‘who’s land?’ Yes, Religion then provides easy, simplistic answers that appeal to a higher authority, but it is empire building that raises the question
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On the other hand, the history of the world has seen a succession of empires, Babylonian, Egyptian, Chinese, Greek, Roman, Mogul, Persian, Russian, Holy Roman, Ottoman, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Austro-Hungarian, British (and I've probably forgotten a few). Hard, or rather impossible, to say how things would have turned out otherwise.
 
PaulMB said:
On the other hand, the history of the world has seen a succession of empires, Babylonian, Egyptian, Chinese, Greek, Roman, Mogul, Persian, Russian, Holy Roman, Ottoman, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Austro-Hungarian, British (and I've probably forgotten a few). Hard, or rather impossible, to say how things would have turned out otherwise.
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I was talking about colonialism, and British colonialism especially, not empires as such. If we look at British Colonialism/imperialism it is about exploitation and appropriation first and foremost and Empire building second.

I fell we need to be careful about ascribing a unity to Empires. Some were founded on expansionism, but others, like Babylon were built, in the first instance at least, by inward migration of people coming together to live in a city. Of course, the success of the early cities depended on control of agriculture which was no doubt founded on control of farming and farmers, but not sure that it is useful to see that in terms of modern colonialism
 
gavreid said:
Israel seems to have begun mass forced 'deportation' of Palestinians:

Thousands ‘returned’ to Gaza​

Witnesses quoted by Reuters said the number of Palestinian workers and labourers who were being sent back from Israel and the occupied West Bank was in the thousands.
Earlier this week, we reported thousands of workers from Gaza, who were employed in Israel when the war started, had gone missing since then, amid a campaign of mass arrests.
Human rights groups and trade unions believe some of the workers were illegally detained in military facilities in the occupied West Bank, following the revocation of their permits to work in Israel.

"We’re getting reports that a large number of Palestinian workers are being returned to the Gaza Strip through the Israeli-controlled Karem Abu Salem (Kerem Shalom) crossing east of Rafah."

www.aljazeera.com

Israel-Hamas war updates: Israeli strike hits Gaza medical convoy

These were the updates on the Israel-Hamas war for Friday, November 3.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com
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Incredible.
 
This is a useful site defending the people held as political prisoners without trial by Israel. Apparently more than 10 000 since the 2nd Intifada...

| Addameer

www.addameer.org www.addameer.org
 
gavreid said:

Was Netanyahu right on Jewish scripture he quoted?​

PM Netanyahu quoted Jewish scripture to justify Israel’s actions in Gaza. However, this rabbi says Netanyahu is wrong.
Watch the discussion below:

www.aljazeera.com

Israel-Hamas war updates: Israel says its forces surround Gaza City

These were the updates on the Israel-Hamas war for Thursday, November 2.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com
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I suppose there are religious Jewish groups who adopt a literal reading of the bible, and others who offer less bloodthirsty readings. I don’t know which view is mainstream, which view is peripheral. I just googled to see whether the Chief Rabbi of England was saying anything to oppose the genocide of Palestinians happening now, but I didn’t find anything - maybe others will have more luck.

By coincidence (and this is really why I felt inclined to make this post) I read Samuel I for the first time quite recently. It is as gory as anything in literature that I’ve ever come across - as gory as The Iliad, maybe more so. This is the relevant bit, which made me pause for thought when I read it (before these atrocities were happening - but only just before. ) I certainly remember thinking to myself when I read it, maybe naively, that there’s something very disturbing about a people adopting this as an account of the nature of their God.

If you google “ban” you’ll see that historians say it was a Middle Eastern practice at the time.

Thus says God: ‘I remember what Amalek did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.

Now go and strike down Amalek and put all he has under the ban of destruction—so have no pity on him; but kill both men and women, children and nursing infants, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

As the story develops, and Saul disobeys the letter of this order, if anything it gets even more disturbing . . .
 
gavreid said:
Substitute the word "Jew" for the word "Palestinian" and what do you get? It is incredible...
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It might be better to substitute "Israeli" rather than "Jew". One of the unfortunate tendencies of the world is to use the two words interchangeably and act in an inappropriate fashion.

The old saying is that, if you only possess a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. This appears to be an Israeli tendency. In a way, they appear to have learned the wrong lesson from the Nazis who sought to destroy European Jewry, i.e. that being every bit as cruel and vicious as the Nazis is the only way to prevent it from happening again. It's true that, in Hamas, they have an opponent whose objective is the destruction of Israel and its replacement by an Islamic government, but only by complete annihilation of the population of Gaza are they going to get that, because otherwise what they are doing at the moment is producing the next generation of terrorists. Only a proper two state solution will solve the problem, but Nitandyahoo doesn't want that. There's an entire mantelpiece of Nobel Peace Prizes for whoever can solve that one.
 

This from MSNBC on the accusations of genocide is well worth watching. The rhetoric quoted midway through from many within Israel’s political power structures leave little doubt as to the intent behind what we are witnessing.
 
tones said:
Only a proper two state solution will solve the problem, but Nitandyahoo doesn't want that.
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Ah the open joke in the corridors of the UN rears its head again. It's a fine-sounding but an ultimately meaningless statement tones, one that panders to Israeli exceptionalism...
 
gavreid said:
Ah the open joke in the corridors of the UN rears its head again. It's a meaningless statement tones...
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Apologies, but I don’t know what the open joke is.

Surely a two state solution is the only solution? Is the joke that while almost UN member states talk about support for a two state solution in public, they actually back genocide in practice
 
ks.234 said:
Apologies, but I don’t know what the open joke is.

Surely a two state solution is the only solution? Is the joke that while almost UN member states talk about support for a two state solution in public, they actually back genocide in practice
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#2799 ks

pinkfishmedia.net

War declared, Israel v Palestine...

Thanks Dave. Yes, I agree - there's a good chance events will be pushing some people, both Israelis and Palestinians, into more extreme outlooks. If a family member had been tortured and killed by Hamas would I be calling for restraint or cheerleading the destruction? Hand on heart I honestly...
pinkfishmedia.net pinkfishmedia.net
 
mandryka said:
I suppose there are religious Jewish groups who adopt a literal reading of the bible, and others who offer less bloodthirsty readings. I don’t know which view is mainstream, which view is peripheral. I just googled to see whether the Chief Rabbi of England was saying anything to oppose the genocide of Palestinians happening now, but I didn’t find anything - maybe others will have more luck.

By coincidence (and this is really why I felt inclined to make this post) I read Samuel I for the first time quite recently. It is as gory as anything in literature that I’ve ever come across - as gory as The Iliad, maybe more so. This is the relevant bit, which made me pause for thought when I read it (before these atrocities were happening - but only just before. ) I certainly remember thinking to myself when I read it, maybe naively, that there’s something very disturbing about a people adopting this as an account of the nature of their God.

If you google “ban” you’ll see that historians say it was a Middle Eastern practice at the time.

Thus says God: ‘I remember what Amalek did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.

Now go and strike down Amalek and put all he has under the ban of destruction—so have no pity on him; but kill both men and women, children and nursing infants, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

As the story develops, and Saul disobeys the letter of this order, if anything it gets even more disturbing . . .
Click to expand...
Are you saying religious nuts are using this to
justify genocide?
 
gavreid said:
Ah the open joke in the corridors of the UN rears its head again. It's a fine-sounding but an ultimately meaningless statement tones, one that panders to Israeli exceptionalism...
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Sorry, but I also don't get the joke, possibly because I don't wander the corridors of the UN. And it's far from meaningless, indeed it is universally recognised as the only viable solution. It could be argued that Israel should not exist, but it does, so that's all effluent under the bridge. And they have undoubtedly made a success of it, far more than the Arab nations around them. Only recently have they started to slip towards the authoritarianism that characterises much of the Arab world. So, we're here, and we can't turn the clock back.

In all good deals, there is compromise on both sides, each side being willing to give up some of their ideal position for one that gives them most of what they want and is mutually satisfying. If both sides are determined to have things 100% their own way, you have the present Gazan situation. As the old line from (appropriately) Fiddler on the Roof has it, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and the whole world ends up blind and toothless.
 
tones said:
Sorry, but I also don't get the joke, possibly because I don't wander the corridors of the UN. And it's far from meaningless, indeed it is universally recognised as the only viable solution. It could be argued that Israel should not exist, but it does, so that's all effluent under the bridge. And they have undoubtedly made a success of it, far more than the Arab nations around them. Only recently have they started to slip towards the authoritarianism that characterises much of the Arab world. So, we're here, and we can't turn the clock back.

In all good deals, there is compromise on both sides, each side being willing to give up some of their ideal position for one that gives them most of what they want and is mutually satisfying. If both sides are determined to have things 100% their own way, you have the present Gazan situation. As the old line from (appropriately) Fiddler on the Roof has it, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and the whole world ends up blind and toothless.
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Not really under the guise of reasonableness
ethnic cleansing has been going on for 50yrs.
See gaza_fication of West Bank.
 
Dogberry said:
Are you saying religious nuts are using this to
justify genocide?
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I know "Christian" people who think, not necessarily of genocide, but that these people simply shouldn't be there and should be removed - pity that they have to be got rid of this way, but this is in the nature of disintegrable farinaceous baked goods. They go back to the promise given to Abram (who was later renamed Abraham) in Genesis:

On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”
(Gen.15:18-21)

As you can see, this leaves some room for further territorial expansion...
 
Two states is all US smoke and mirrors. Why has there never been a concrete proposal outlining a territorial solution and, importantly, the protection for the Palestinians? Why has the US never made its 'aid' to Israel conditional on implementing 2 states? It could have done so at anytime - "implement 2 states in line with UN policy buddy or it's sanctions next week!" There is and never has been any intent to implement and to enforce 2 states...
 
Dogberry said:
Are you saying religious nuts are using this to
justify genocide?
Click to expand...

The video @tones posted a while upthread on ‘Christian Nationalism’ is worth a watch as it highlights exactly how religion is just tool political extremists use to get to their goal of power. Hamas, Netanyahu, much of the GOP or Tory Party etc are clearly heretics when judged by the texts they claim to believe in.
 
gavreid said:
Two states is all US smoke and mirrors. Why has there never been a concrete proposal outlining a territorial solution and, importantly, the protection for the Palestinians? Why has the US never made its 'aid' to Israel conditional on implementing 2 states? It could have done so at anytime - "implement 2 states in line with UN policy buddy or it's sanctions next week!" There is and never has been any intent to implement and to enforce 2 states...
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If memory serves me correctly, there have been a number of concrete proposals, but the problem is that the USA has always seen (and continues to see) Israel as its essential local Middle Eastern ally. In addition, given the attachment of US "Christians" to Israel and what they believe is its central role in Armageddon, the Second Coming and the end of the age - just look at the beliefs of the new US Speaker of the House, an avowed "Christian Zionist" - sanctioning Israel is a certain vote loser (remember that, like any animal, the primary goal of a politician is self-preservation).
 
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