advertisement


War declared, Israel v Palestine...

tones said:
If memory serves me correctly, there have been a number of concrete proposals, but the problem is that the USA has always seen (and continues to see) Israel as its essential local Middle eastern ally. In addition, given the attachment of US "Christians" to Israel and what they believe is its central role in Armageddon, the Second Coming and the end of the age - just look at the beliefs of the new US Speaker of the House, an avowed "Christian Zionist" - sanctioning Israel is a certain vote loser (remember that, like any animal, the primary goal of a politician is self-preservation).
Click to expand...
It was one of the key failings of Oslo - there was never a proposal over territory or over a timeline.
 
Two state solutions. Historical precendents. 19th century herding of aboriginal Americans into ‘reservations.’ Ireland In 1922. Bantustans in 20th century South Africa. What reason to suppose that Israel/ Palestine would be any different? Gaza 2023 gives a credible vision of any Israeli ‘two-state solution.’

The argument that because something exists, it therefore has to be accommodated, is somewhat spurious. If that was the case, we’d still have gerrymandered electoral boundaries and the RUC in Ulster, Apartheid in South Africa, and Ian Smith’s Rhodesia.
 
gavreid said:
#2799 ks

pinkfishmedia.net

War declared, Israel v Palestine...

Thanks Dave. Yes, I agree - there's a good chance events will be pushing some people, both Israelis and Palestinians, into more extreme outlooks. If a family member had been tortured and killed by Hamas would I be calling for restraint or cheerleading the destruction? Hand on heart I honestly...
pinkfishmedia.net pinkfishmedia.net
Click to expand...
While it is a joke that a two state solution is impossible with how things are now, not least the hypocrisy and double dealing of the US and UK inparticular who pay homage to the two state solution while actively supporting the take over of one state, surely a two state solution is the only solution on the table, and that has to be taken seriously by the US, the UK and the EU rather than treated as a joke.

Isreali’s and Palestinians will never agree, but Western Powers can and should stop fooling around and be seriously held to their words and promises to create a Palestinian state with sovereignty and autonomy.
 
The Oslo Accords signed in 1993 by Yizhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat was supposed to have been the formal step in the foundation of a separate Palestinian state. In the thirty years since, illegal Israeli settlements have increased in the West Bank, and Gaza is effectively a concentration camp accommodating 2.2 million, although that number has been significantly reduced over the last month. The world‘s elected politicians not only look on, but actively support Israel’s “right to defend itself.” If Israel did not exist, Joe Biden says he would invent it.

What reason is there to believe Israel is now, or has ever been, seriously entertaining any ‘Two-state solution’? I would say negligible at the very best. It is a con, a hoodwink, a chimera. If I was kicked out of my own house, not allowed to return for 75 years, but later offered a chance to sleep in my own garden shed, I think I’d rather listen to what Hamas had to say.

One state- secular, demilitarised, and which all enjoy democratic rights independent of ethnicity or religion. Unrealistic? Too much water under the bridge? Unworkable? Tell that to the citizens of Ulster or South Africa.
 
Dogberry said:
Are you saying religious nuts are using this to
justify genocide?
Click to expand...

I just felt the urge to make that post because when I read Samuel a few weeks ago I was really shocked by the nastiness of it. And then these events in Gaza happened, where the Israelis are killing "both men and women, children and nursing infants, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys." And then Netanyahu referred to Samuel in a justifying speech. I just needed to say it to get it out of my system, I find it all a bit disturbing.

I am sure that not all religious people read it literally, and take it as a justification for what's going on. What I am not at all sure about is whether the literal reading is central, or peripheral, or what.
 
No doubt where the Republicans stand:

The United States House of Representatives has passed a Republican plan providing $14.5bn in military aid for Israel, setting up a partisan clash over the usually bipartisan issue of backing the staunch US ally.

www.aljazeera.com

US House passes $14.5bn military aid package for Israel

Republican bill faces slim prospects of becoming law due to President Joe Biden’s opposition to attached spending cuts.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com
 
Finnegan said:
The Oslo Accords signed in 1993 by Yizhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat was supposed to have been the formal step in the foundation of a separate Palestinian state. In the thirty years since, illegal Israeli settlements have increased in the West Bank, and Gaza is effectively a concentration camp accommodating 2.2 million, although that number has been significantly reduced over the last month. The world‘s elected politicians not only look on, but actively support Israel’s “right to defend itself.” If Israel did not exist, Joe Biden says he would invent it.

What reason is there to believe Israel is now, or has ever been, seriously entertaining any ‘Two-state solution’? I would say negligible at the very best. It is a con, a hoodwink, a chimera. If I was kicked out of my own house, not allowed to return for 75 years, but later offered a chance to sleep in my own garden shed, I think I’d rather listen to what Hamas had to say.

One state- secular, demilitarised, and which all enjoy democratic rights independent of ethnicity or religion. Unrealistic? Too much water under the bridge? Unworkable? Tell that to the citizens of Ulster or South Africa.
Click to expand...
Oslo was nipped promptly in the bud -with lead.
 
ks.234 said:
While it is a joke that a two state solution is impossible with how things are now, not least the hypocrisy and double dealing of the US and UK inparticular who pay homage to the two state solution while actively supporting the take over of one state, surely a two state solution is the only solution on the table, and that has to be taken seriously by the US, the UK and the EU rather than treated as a joke.

Isreali’s and Palestinians will never agree, but Western Powers can and should stop fooling around and be seriously held to their words and promises to create a Palestinian state with sovereignty and autonomy.
Click to expand...
For a viable 2-state solution you would need the support of all the surrounding Arab states plus Iran and Turkey. Of these only Jordan and Egypt seem well disposed, and they are both fragile dictatorships. You can't blame it all on the US and the UK (which in any case has little influence either way).
 
mandryka said:
I just felt the urge to make that post because when I read Samuel a few weeks ago I was really shocked by the nastiness of it. And then these events in Gaza happened, where the Israelis are killing "both men and women, children and nursing infants, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys." And then Netanyahu referred to Samuel in a justifying speech. I just needed to say it to get it out of my system, I find it all a bit disturbing.

I am sure that not religious people read it literally, and take it as a justification for what's going on. What I am not at all sure about is whether the literal reading is central, or peripheral, or what.
Click to expand...
I wonder what scripture Hamas used when they started the whole thing off by brutally and joyfully murdering 1,500 civilian men women, children and babies, raping and torturing, and taking 230 hostages.
 
tones said:
It might be better to substitute "Israeli" rather than "Jew". One of the unfortunate tendencies of the world is to use the two words interchangeably and act in an inappropriate fashion.

The old saying is that, if you only possess a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. This appears to be an Israeli tendency. In a way, they appear to have learned the wrong lesson from the Nazis who sought to destroy European Jewry, i.e. that being every bit as cruel and vicious as the Nazis is the only way to prevent it from happening again. It's true that, in Hamas, they have an opponent whose objective is the destruction of Israel and its replacement by an Islamic government, but only by complete annihilation of the population of Gaza are they going to get that, because otherwise what they are doing at the moment is producing the next generation of terrorists. Only a proper two state solution will solve the problem, but Nitandyahoo doesn't want that. There's an entire mantelpiece of Nobel Peace Prizes for whoever can solve that one.
Click to expand...
Sorry Tones this is dead wrong about Hamas and their desire to “annihilate” Israel: there’s rhetoric to that effect but no more than on the Israeli side and in practice they’ve shown that they’d settle for the 1967 borders. Israel is desperate to equate Hamas with Isis, for obvious reasons, but there’s no comparison. This isn’t to say they’re great guys, hope that’s obvious.
 
PaulMB said:
I wonder what scripture Hamas used when they started the whole thing off by brutally and joyfully murdering 1,500 civilian men women, children and babies, raping and torturing, and taking 230 hostages.
Click to expand...
You dishonour the dead by pretending that their slaughter “started the whole thing.”
 
tones said:
Really?
www.theatlantic.com

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions.
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
Click to expand...

Ahmed Yassin (Hamas' founder) was very clear on this - he believed that Israel was attempting to destroy Islam, and so all loyal Muslims had a religious obligation to destroy Israel. In addition, when Arafat and the PLO reversed their position from destroying Israel, he opposed it.

Page 101 of "The New Foreign Policy: Power Seeking in a Globalized Era", by Laura Neack, 2008.
books.google.co.uk

The New Foreign Policy

In this cogent text, Laura Neack argues that foreign policy making, in this uncertain era of globalization, global violence and American hegemony, revolves around power seeking and power maintenance. Now in a thoroughly revised and updated edition with concise, accessible chapters, the book...
books.google.co.uk

I am not aware of Hamas ever altering their position.
 
Seanm said:
You dishonour the dead by pretending that their slaughter “started the whole thing.”
Click to expand...
But it did.

Of course, you can say 40 years of oppression, or 80 years of oppression, But then you may as well go back to migration of the Jews from Egypt or their exile from Israel by the Romans. Or the deportation of 1,000,000 Jews from the Arab countries in the 1940s and '50s.

What started off this war the Hamas massacre of Oct.7.
And the "war on Gaza" and the thousands of civilian victims is exactly what Hamas wanted.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top