War declared, Israel v Palestine...

[stevec67]

There's absolutely no way that M&S would post that ad intentionally depicting the colours of a Palestine flag. They're a commercial organisation with everything to lose and little to gain by such a gesture. Yeah, yeah, they're Jewish owned. I know. Big deal. It's just another example of manufactured outrage by people wanting to be on the right side on an argument.

 

[Tony L]

Indeed. It doesn't protect them from war crimes though.

One could argue it confirms status as a rogue terror state. Those who actively support war crimes, genocide and apartheid can not be viewed as anything else.

That David Mitchell dressed as a Nazi saying “Are we the bad guys?!” meme comes to mind. If we support or enable the mass slaughter of children and innocent civilians, the bombing of hospitals and refugee camps along with long-term displacement of millions, then yes, we are. Unquestionably. Even before we get to attempting to justify the decades of state oppression and apartheid. These are issues of basic humanity and morality. The correct answer should be obvious. Our leaders are falling way, way short of the mark and are hopelessly out of step with public opinion. It is time to recognise fascism has arrived.

 

[Seanm]

One could argue it confirms status as a rogue terror state. Those who actively support war crimes, genocide and apartheid can not be viewed as anything else.

That David Mitchell dressed as a Nazi saying “Are we the bad guys?!” meme comes to mind. If we support or enable the mass slaughter of children and innocent civilians, the bombing of hospitals and refugee camps along with long-term displacement of millions, then yes, we are. Unquestionably. Even before we get to attempting to justify the decades of state oppression and apartheid. These are issues of basic humanity and morality. The correct answer should be obvious. Our leaders are falling way, way short of the mark and are hopelessly out of step with public opinion. It is time to recognise fascism has arrived.

This seems like a watershed moment. As far as I can see, the many announcements made by Israeli leaders regarding their intention to commit ethnic cleansing and genocide, the unambiguous statements of leaders in the US, U.K. and other powerful in support of this, mean that the west is entirely abandoning the so called “international rules-based order” and its institutions. They can’t continue to recognise institutions that will have little choice now but to prosecute them for war crimes. Israel is the rogue state that turned the western world rogue.

The west is effectively saying, no more mr nice guy: from here on in we’re not even going to pretend to follow the rules. Presumably this is in anticipation of the atrocities they know they’ll be committing when climate change truly overwhelms the global south.

Fun times ahead.

 

[gavreid]

I doubt they've thought much about the ironic possibility of Iran/China/Russia putting them on trial at some point in the future. Even a post-revolutionary Egypt. The US was all but isolated in the vote at the UN...

 

[Finnegan]

As to finnegan's post, it is just hard to begin. What is seen in the clip is unjustified police brutality. But some people have a story to tell, dots to connect, de-colonization ideology to support, and facts are neglected.

1. The orthodox religious, at this moment, comprise a large part of the government (MP's representative- wise). Between a fourth and a third of it. They have been in the government, e.g. central ministers taking care of their voters, for ~90% of recent 40-50 years and longer than that. If you add non-orthodox religious, we are at roughly 50% of government and more. If you count the amount of "secular Ashkenazi" in the 64 reigning members of parliament, I doubt you will reach 15.
2. Much harder Police brutality was widely used and recorded against those "secular Askenazi" of yours in huge rallies which the government, as you, denounced as "the white tribe", so you are in good company. Demonstrations against the religious+orthodox religious right who have been in power for long. Harsh brutality against youths, against elderly, against Ashkenazi left peace activists. Those vile secular ashkenazi demanded they are treated by the police the same way as Orthodox jewish demonstrators.
3. The so called "Secular Ashkenazi" parties are in the opposition for 15 years now, except for one very short break last year. They are roughly a fourth of the population, even though it's hard to tell because many families are mixed.
4. Please update, the culture in Israel is no longer secular Ashkenazi. Just watch any reality show, song contest, most popular singers and artists, they are Mizrahi/Sepharadi, i.e. of mostly middle eastern culture, or perhaps mixed.
5. Sinning in generalizations, I would say that Peace movements are mainly secular Ashkenazi, extreme left movements even more so. Since 1977, the vast majority of governments are right-wing, supported by "traditional" Sepharadi voters. The leftists goverments, the ones who acknowledged PLO, signed the Oslo accord, are mostly "secular Ashkenazi".

Israeli culture has been far from pure of racism, but this post was so in line with recent trends, so overlooking reality, trying to fit events into pre-disposed beliefs, that honestly I am embarrassed to answer it. It is also embarrassing because of all the race distinctions that the post raised and hence appeared in answer.

Fatmarley, you are correct, when god is telling you things, it's hard to ignore. but not everyone in Israel (muslims and jews) is religious, and there are religious people who don't let their faith overcome their humanity and respect towards other people.

Sorry bud, but I’m a wee bit banjaxed by what your jeremiad attempted to address/ refute/ deny/ assert/argue. And I’m really unclear who the “you” is who “denounced the white tribe.”

My point is that Ashkenazi Jews historically dominated political, economic and social life in Israel, and were historically secular in comparison to other sects such as the Mizrahi and the Sephardic. These more observant sects were frequently less segregated from Palestinians. The Ashkenazi often adopted condescending, if not outright racist, attitudes to these other groups. That their influence has been eroded in recent times does not refute history.

The State of Israel claims to speak for all Jews, yet is riven with tension, conflict and even racism within its own society. The sight of Israeli police battering Orthodox Jews off the street gives lie to the conceit of the State of Israel claiming to represent all strands of Jewish opinion. And makes a mockery of the religious claim that all Jews are resisting Arab terrorism in order to fulfil biblical prophecy.

Those are the points I made and I stand by them.

 

[Finnegan]

This seems like a watershed moment.

It really does seem the case to me. We have never before witnessed such widespread revulsion across the world, including crucial cohorts such as US Jews and vast swathes of the Arab world. Despite the current carnage, I’m optimistic that this is a beginning of a global anti-apartheid movement that will ultimately see the end of the apartheid, racist, settler-colonial Israeli state, just as it did the apartheid, racist, settler-colonial South African state.

 

[wacko]

Israel is in a much stronger position than apartheid era South Africa was.
USA is totally biased in support of Zionism. It will block any boycott and supply unlimited financial and military support.

 

[wacko]

I doubt they've thought much about the ironic possibility of Iran/China/Russia putting them on trial at some point in the future. Even a post-revolutionary Egypt. The US was all but isolated in the vote at the UN...

If Trump or similar gets elected I wouldn't be surprised to see the USA leave the UN.

 

[gavreid]

If Trump or similar gets elected I wouldn't be surprised to see the USA leave the UN.

Neither would I but still no protection from war crimes charges.

 

[gavreid]

Tunisia MPs debate bill criminalising normalisation of Israel ties​

The draft bill defines “normalisation” as “recognition of the Zionist entity or the establishment of direct or indirect ties” with it.
Its text says “the crime of normalisation”, which would be classed as “high treason”.
Anyone found guilty would face a penalty of between six to 10 years in prison and a fine of 10,000 to 100,000 Tunisian dinars ($3,200 to $32,000), while repeat offenders would be jailed for life.
“There is total agreement between the president, the parliament and public opinion” on this matter, parliamentary speaker Brahim Bouderbala told lawmakers at the start of the session.
“We strongly believe Palestine must be liberated from the river to the sea … and that a Palestinian state must be established with holy Jerusalem as its capital,” he said.

Bahrain says it has recalled its ambassador to Israel and halted all economic ties with it.

In a statement, the parliament of the Gulf state said the moves were part of measures taken in support of “the Palestinian cause and the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people”.

Cars, shops set on fire in latest settler attack in West Bank​

We’re getting reports of an attack by dozens of Israeli settlers in the Palestinian town of Deir Sharaf, west of Nablus in the occupied West Bank.
Footage from the scene shows plumes of black smoke rising into the sky from cars set on fire.
Palestinian-owned shops were also attacked while a 50-year-old Palestinian has been reported wounded.

As we reported earlier, the death toll in Gaza from Israeli attacks has risen to 9,061 people, including 3,760 children.

Internationally accepted rules of armed conflict were passed under the Geneva Conventions in 1949, which state children must be protected and treated humanely.

Israel-Hamas war updates: Israel says its forces surround Gaza City

These were the updates on the Israel-Hamas war for Thursday, November 2.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[PaulMB]

Sorry bud, but I’m a wee bit banjaxed by what your jeremiad attempted to address/ refute/ deny/ assert/argue. And I’m really unclear who the “you” is who “denounced the white tribe.”

My point is that Ashkenazi Jews historically dominated political, economic and social life in Israel, and were historically secular in comparison to other sects such as the Mizrahi and the Sephardic. These more observant sects were frequently less segregated from Palestinians. The Ashkenazi often adopted condescending, if not outright racist, attitudes to these other groups. That their influence has been eroded in recent times does not refute history.

The State of Israel claims to speak for all Jews, yet is riven with tension, conflict and even racism within its own society. The sight of Israeli police battering Orthodox Jews off the street gives lie to the conceit of the State of Israel claiming to represent all strands of Jewish opinion. And makes a mockery of the religious claim that all Jews are resisting Arab terrorism in order to fulfil biblical prophecy.

Those are the points I made and I stand by them.

Forgive me, Finnegan, I know your heart is in the right place.
But what you write about Israel shows that you understand very little of what it is today and how it came about over the past 150-odd years. I admit that it is not simple at all. I've been there about 40 times, and have been reading on the subject of Middle East and Israeli history for about 40 years. And I am still discovering things I never knew.
A couple of aspects that might interest you:
A) There was always, over the centuries, a minority of Jews in the area, mostly in Jerusalem but in a couple of other places as well. And "the area" was part of the Syrian region of the Ottoman Empire.
B) Zionism developed 19th century in the wake of the European historical passage from dynasticism to nationalism. As Europe became a collection of nations, with Italy for Italians and Germany for Germans and so on, irrespective of whose sister the king had married, so Jews started to think that there should be a State for the Jewish nation.
C) That aspiration for a Jewish state was not religious, but pragmatically political and variously inspired by ideas of Socialism, Socialdemocracy and Communism. Hence the structuring of society on the foundations of the kibbutz and the moshav.
D) You are right that these ideals sprang from European left-wing culture, and that the main waves of immigration up to and right after the Second World War were prevalently, although not exclusively, by Ashkenazi Jews.

 

[Richard Lines]

Presumably this is in anticipation of the atrocities they know they’ll be committing when climate change truly overwhelms the global south.

Unfortunately I suspect there is considerably more than a grain of truth in this......

Regards

Richard

 

[Finnegan]

Forgive me, Finnegan, I know your heart is in the right place.
But what you write about Israel shows that you understand very little of what it is today and how it came about over the past 150-odd years. I admit that it is not simple at all. I've been there about 40 times, and have been reading on the subject of Middle East and Israeli history for about 40 years. And I am still discovering things I never knew.
A couple of aspects that might interest you:
A) There was always, over the centuries, a minority of Jews in the area, mostly in Jerusalem but in a couple of other places as well. And "the area" was part of the Syrian region of the Ottoman Empire.
B) Zionism developed 19th century in the wake of the European historical passage from dynasticism to nationalism. As Europe became a collection of nations, with Italy for Italians and Germany for Germans and so on, irrespective of whose sister the king had married, so Jews started to think that there should be a State for the Jewish nation.
C) That aspiration for a Jewish state was not religious, but pragmatically political and variously inspired by ideas of Socialism, Socialdemocracy and Communism. Hence the structuring of society on the foundations of the kibbutz and the moshav.
D) You are right that these ideals sprang from European left-wing culture, and that the main waves of immigration up to and right after the Second World War were prevalently, although not exclusively, by Ashkenazi Jews.

I have never denied, and in fact frequently highlighted, the historical presence of a Jewish community in the Middle East.

I am fully aware of an original socialist dimension to Zionism. Many of the ex-Jewish servicemen who were instrumental in smashing Oswald Mosley’s British Union of Fascists off the streets in the 1930’s were Zionist inasmuch as they advocated a Jewish homeland in Palestine in line with the Balfour Declaration. The obscenity of the Judeocide carried out by Nazism convinced many of this necessity, even though it involved the subjugation of a people wholly unconnected to the Holocaust.

So I’m not sure what point you‘re making, other than suggesting I lack understanding as you are more widely read on the subject. I too have read extensively, although evidently a different bibliography.

You have attempted to portray the axis of Europe/ United States/ Israel as representing European Enlightenment in opposition to an irrational and intrinsically uncivilised Islam- and that is a racist position whether consciously adopted or otherwise. My understanding, that you deem as limited, is sufficient to convince me that the State of Israel represents nothing other than a racist, settler-colonial state predicated on the subjugation of the Palestinians. After more than 140 pages of this thread I have not moderated this position, nor am I likely to. Your position has not changed either. So I reaffirm the conviction that, as far as this topic is concerned, there is little to be gained through constantly rehearsing the same argument to each other.

 

[mandryka]

The west is effectively saying, no more mr nice guy: from here on in we’re not even going to pretend to follow the rules. Presumably this is in anticipation of the atrocities they know they’ll be committing when climate change truly overwhelms the global south.

Fun times ahead.

Anything interesting to read about this, Sean?

I've heard similar ideas before, maybe from you in fact, I can't remember.

So far we have three conjectures to explain the establishment response to what's happening in the middle east:

1. Politicians in the pockets of ethno-nationalist settler colonial Zionists and their supporters.
2. Strategic interests. The establishment is just maximising the well being of their own states.
3. Prep (possibly soft power prep) for plans to deal with human migration as global warming evolves.

 

[Seanm]

It really does seem the case to me. We have never before witnessed such widespread revulsion across the world, including crucial cohorts such as US Jews and vast swathes of the Arab world. Despite the current carnage, I’m optimistic that this is a beginning of a global anti-apartheid movement that will ultimately see the end of the apartheid, racist, settler-colonial Israeli state, just as it did the apartheid, racist, settler-colonial South African state.

I didn’t mean it was a watershed in a good way: I mean governments are looking at their own loss of legitimacy, at home and internationally, and thinking: **** it, who needs consent when we’ve got guns, borders and prisons? But I’m happy to see a more optimistic take, and yes, global popular opinion does seem to be shifting.

 

[Seanm]

Anything interesting to read about this, Sean?

I've heard similar ideas before, maybe from you in fact, I can't remember.

So far we have three conjectures to explain the establishment response to what's happening in the middle east:

1. Politicians in the pockets of ethno-nationalist settler colonial Zionists and their supporters.
2. Strategic interests. The establishment is just maximising the well being of their own states.
3. Prep (possibly soft power prep) for plans to deal with human migration as global warming evolves.

Can’t think of anything in particular I’m afraid.

 

[Tony L]

So far we have three conjectures to explain the establishment response to what's happening in the middle east:

1. Politicians in the pockets of ethno-nationalist settler colonial Zionists and their supporters.
2. Strategic interests. The establishment is just maximising the well being of their own states.
3. Prep (possibly soft power prep) for plans to deal with human migration as global warming evolves.

All are plausible and none are mutually exclusive. I’d also add a fear and unwillingness to challenge or call-out a nation that was set up with good intentions in the wake of the largest and worst crime against humanity even when that project has clearly gone off the rails and is itself committing atrocities.

 

[Somafunk]

Well I wasn't expecting this.

Social media is full of people calling for a boycott of M&S after they posted an outtake from their Xmas ad that appears to show a woman with eye make-up in the colours of the Israeli flag burning party hats in the colours of the Palestinian flag.

Probably for the best that I’m not head of PR for Marks & Spencer as my response would be “**** off, and when you’ve finished ****ing off then turn around and **** off in the other direction”.

 

[Spraggons Den]

Rather, they considered themselves Arabs.

Similar to my observations during my time in the ME. One aspect of Arab life not really understood by folk who haven't lived there is the underlying organisation of society by ancestoral tribe. Family name denotes the bearer's religion and place in the social hierarchy Until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the lands were controlled by competing tribes who settled their differences by negotiations rather than conflict. Consequently they are IME much less inclined to violence and viewed war as a western phenomena.

 

[gavreid]

Palestine Red Crescent says ambulance attacked by Israel, paramedics injured​

The Palestinian agency said the attack took place as the ambulance team was transporting people killed and wounded along Rashid Street, a major road in Gaza.
“This unfortunate incident led to injuries among the paramedics, with Alaa Eldrewi sustaining a gunshot injury to the shoulder and shrapnel in the head, and Bahaa Badr al-Din with a live ammunition injury to the foot,” PRCS said.

Israel-Hamas war updates: Israel says its forces surround Gaza City

These were the updates on the Israel-Hamas war for Thursday, November 2.

www.aljazeera.com