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Should Scotland be an independent country?

Should Scotland be an independent country?

  • Total voters
    132
  • Poll closed .
TheDecameron said:
The thread’s turned into a drop-in centre/ butt hurt therapy zone. All welcome. We might need a bigger tea urn though.
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Yeah, yeah, you’ve complained in this way before. :)

If what you want is an echo chamber of agreement with your hypocrisy then tough luck.
 
Brian said:
Yeah, yeah, you’ve complained in this way before. :)

If what you want is an echo chamber of agreement with your hypocrisy then tough luck.
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Barrymagrec said:
I would presume that if it wished an independent Scotland could adopt the Euro.
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I stand corrected, Kosovo adopted the Euro and it is not (yet) an EU member.

Independent Scotland could use sterling post exit, but the BoE would almost certainly not be the Lender of Last Resort to an independent Scotland, and that in turn could mean Scotland failing to meet the 'stable own currency' joining rules for EU. No full BoE support would also be unacceptable to any Financial Services biz and Banks operating within an independent Scotland.

Sturgeon either really has not thought it all through, or has done so and is keeping schtum to the Scotland population of the grave risks and timescales, with pitfalls, that an independent Scotland could face whilst transitioning to potential full EU membership.
 
You’d never guess the high risk Brexit experiment was starting next month, a right wing government led by a compulsive liar had just won a landslide in Westminster and the Labour Party had been wiped off the map. If I was living in England, I’d be worried about stuff far closer to home - but thank you for all the concern. We’ll look after ourselves.
 
Barrymagrec said:
I would presume that if it wished an independent Scotland could adopt the Euro.
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I.D.C. said:
It can use Sterling if it wished UK government cant stop that.
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Adopting the pound or the Euro is fraught with difficulties eg in both cases Scotland would have no say over its monetary policy, which governs interest rates and currency exchange rates. In other words it would have little economic autonomy. In addition, it is by no means certain that Scotland could avoid joining the Euro. To do this it would have to adopt the ERM for 2 years to show it can maintain price stability with its own currency. It would, therefore, have to have its own currency which presents substantial economic problems, not least would be accumulating sufficient reserves to maintain a stable currency in what could be a hostile international financial environment.

So there could be 3 approaches (the pound, the Euro and own currency), but all three could substantially undermine the economic interests of Scotland and bring about the worst austerity in my lifetime. I'm waiting for the SNP to deliver some clarity on the what and how it will handle the currency issue. SNP members have voted for Scotland to have its own currency within 2 years of independence, this is surely an aspirational objective given the financial base it requires. The EU could then decide it must join the Euro within a limited time of being accepted to the EU. That would send everyone here nuts.
 
Yes, there are no easy solutions and initially economic management would likely be very tough. If the Tories get the hard no-deal leave they seem to crave this will make the UK border issue a major problem as well.

So let’s just give up and our interests be ignored forever by an English government.

Or maybe we should recognise that Scottish GDP, population, natural resources and tech place us as a mid-rank EU state like Sweden and Ireland. Strangely they seem to do OK. Transitional problems are temporary. Painful but temporary.
 
Colin L said:
Yes, there are no easy solutions and initially economic management would likely be very tough. If the Tories get the hard no-deal leave they seem to crave this will make the UK border issue a major problem as well.

So let’s just give up and our interests be ignored forever by an English government.

Or maybe we should recognise that Scottish GDP, population, natural resources and tech place us as a mid-rank EU state like Sweden and Ireland. Strangely they seem to do OK. Transitional problems are temporary. Painful but temporary.
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How long do you expect ‘temporary’ to be and how have you worked it out?

I hope the style in which I wrote that question didn’t offend you too much, Col. I tried.
 
Everyone in these islands is staring down the barrel of Brexit, rammed through and unopposed by the few Labour skeletons remaining in the green leather seats. Beyond the domestic economic damage, Ireland is going to take an economic hammering, the Dutch economy is next most exposed. The whole risk calculation has shifted. The economic heydays seen during Blair’s government are never coming back. Northern Ireland is already being sold out. If you’re sitting waiting for the fabled Brexit economic Shangri La, you’re a fool. The tragi-comedy article in today’s Guardian, headed- “A Labour defeat, yes, but this was not nearly as bad as 1983” is a particularity bad augury in a land spoIled for choice with Brexit delusions. Time to get out.
 
Colin L said:
Less than Rees-Moggs 50 years to see a benefit from Brexit.
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I doubt you dislike Rees-Mogg or the tories as much as I do. The question still stands unanswered.

TheDecameron said:
Everyone in these islands is staring down the barrel of Brexit, rammed through and unopposed by the few Labour skeletons remaining in the green leather seats. Beyond the domestic economic damage, Ireland is going to take an economic hammering, the Dutch economy is next most exposed. The whole risk calculation has shifted. The economic heydays seen during Blair’s government are never coming back. Northern Ireland is already being sold out. If you’re sitting waiting for the fabled Brexit economic Shangri La, you’re a fool. Time to get out.
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Is that to the general membership?

Whatever, nothing to worry about. Nicola will save you.
 
The question is unanswered. I don’t know how long but I do know that in due course Scotland will be in better place than shackled to a Tory England. The prospect looks more enticing every day.

Brian said:
What can Sturgeon actually do, is what crept into my head.

Tories will agree to the request only if it suits tories. They won’t agree out of some notion of a democratic mandate, they are authoritarian to the core.

Labour would probably have agreed but that chance has gone, big picture stuff is not easy once consumed by some crusade.

After saying that, I think the tories should agree. It should be made clear during the campaign that if independence is the winner it happens very quickly. A matter of months. Scotland does not get to use English currency, Scotland pays its portion of the UK debt before leaving and pays for implementing border controls. There should be no deals of any sort with the rest of the UK as a ‘special case’, Scotland can concentrate on joining the EU and be lumped in with whatever deal the UK ends up in with the EU. In the meantime, nothing.

When faced with reality the sensible Scots will vote against independence, same as they did the last time.

By the way, I know what I said there is harsh but the point is I don’t want people to vote for independence so I don’t expect any of that to actually happen.
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So in this case you would seek to damage the Scots who voted to be independent just out of spite at them voting against what you want. That’s a very mean, petty, Tory sort of attitude.
 
Colin L said:
The question is unanswered. I don’t know how long but I do know that in due course Scotland will be in better place than shackled to a Tory England. The prospect looks more enticing every day.



So in this case you would seek to damage the Scots who voted to be independent just out of spite at them voting against what you want. That’s a very mean, petty, Tory sort of attitude.
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Colin, don’t underestimate the function of the thread as a shoulder to cry on, even if the tears are bitter. We should aim to be magnanimous. I’ll bring the man size Kleenex and make sure the quiet space is respected at all times. Last week, even Tory Perthshire went SNP. A friend of mine- lifelong Tory voter, senior partner in an Edinburgh corporate law firm not only voted SNP for the first time in his life, he got out and campaigned for them.
 
I've been thinking long and hard about this.

As an English person living on the South Coast, I'd not presume to tell the Scottih people, for whom I have the greatest affection and regard, what they should or shouldn't do. I do though quite understand why they might want to leave the UK, particularly given recent events - I'd quite like to leave myself!

I do wonder though whether tactically the Scottish Nationalists, and the people of Scotland, might not be better off - at least in the short to medium term - pushing for ever greater devolution and increased financial support from Westminster. I think of this as the Quebec option, though I'd be the first to accept that this might not be a terribly good analogy. Maybe Vlaams/Wallonia would be better?

But, whatever, once increased Scottish devolution is achieved and locked in it would be very difficult for Westminster to claw it back, and it would be an even firmer springboard from which to push for independence at a later date should the Scottish people still want it.

I'm quite happy to be shot down in flames, at least by our Scottish members!
 
MikeMA said:
I've been thinking long and hard about this.

As an English person living on the South Coast, I'd not presume to tell the Scottih people, for whom I have the greatest affection and regard, what they should or shouldn't do. I do though quite understand why they might want to leave the UK, particularly given recent events - I'd quite like to leave myself!

I do wonder though whether tactically the Scottish Nationalists, and the people of Scotland, might not be better off - at least in the short to medium term - pushing for ever greater devolution and increased financial support from Westminster. I think of this as the Quebec option, though I'd be the first to accepts that this might not be a terribly good analogy. Maybe Vlaams/Wallonia would be better.

But, whatever, once increased Scottish devolution is achieved and locked in it would be very difficult for Westminster to claw it back, and it would be an even firmer springboard from which to push for independence at a later date should the Scottish people still want it.

I'm quite happy to be shot down in flames, at least by our Scottish members!
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Mike, in normal times I’d say yes - but we are no longer there. We are entering the biggest period of turbulence since the Second World War. Johnson got up, in a moment that would make the real Trump blush and said “ I don’t believe it’s vainglorious to state that we are entering a new golden age”. The dissonance is shocking.
 
Colin L said:
The question is unanswered. I don’t know how long but I do know that in due course Scotland will be in better place than shackled to a Tory England. The prospect looks more enticing every day.
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Yes, I agree it is unanswered. So we’re agreed you don’t know what you’re voting for. Could be 5 years, could be 49.

Since you have no idea how long Scotland will be economically worse off, can you say for how long are you prepared for Scotland to be worse off? How long is worth it? What if Scotland can’t meet the terms to join the EU? Where is the plan? What is the timescale?

Colin L said:
So in this case you would seek to damage the Scots who voted to be independent just out of spite at them voting against what you want. That’s a very mean, petty, Tory sort of attitude.
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:D

Not at all. As I said and you perhaps read in my post. The sensible people will do the right thing. After saying that, I see no reason why it should be made easy for Scotland to leave the UK. You know, rather like how the EU don’t make it easy to leave their bloc. You will have to pay your debt and you will have to create border controls. That’s a reality.
 
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