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Should Scotland be an independent country?

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Deej, Nov 9, 2019.

?

Should Scotland be an independent country?

This poll will close on Nov 9, 2020 at 1:24 PM.
  1. Yes

    56.7%
  2. No

    34.4%
  3. Not sure

    8.9%
  1. Deej

    Deej Well-Known Member

    The debate on Question Time has got me thinking about this again.

    I certainly have my reservations about independence. There are lots of questions to be answered on how an independent Scotland would look in terms of its currency, pensions and economy.

    However I am now leaning on the side of independence. Why should Scottish people be denied another referendum? The Tories always make the argument that there's been a referendum in 2014 and that should be respected. That ignores the fact though that there has been a material change in Scotland's relationship with the UK, and that is Brexit. Scottish people were promised that Scotland would remain in the EU as part of the UK, a promise that has now been broken. They voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU in the 2016 referendum and are now facing the prospect of being dragged out of the EU against their will. There's nothing democratic about that.

    Not just that but if SNP win the election next month by the landslide they're expected to (support is still stronger than ever), then who is any government to deny them that right to hold a referendum? Scottish people keep voting in the SNP on a mandate to have another independence referendum, and rather like the Spanish government in Spain with the Catalans, who are they to deny them that right? A denial of a second independence referendum in Scotland would be the real democratic outrage.
     
    Spike55 and Caledon1297 like this.
  2. Weekender

    Weekender pfm Member

    No.
    I think it will be though.
     
  3. gassor

    gassor There may be more posts after this.

    I think there will be a 2nd ref, but I don't see the need for any big rush. There are a multitude of economic and political issues to sort out first eg the fall out from Brexit and a Scottish currency for starters.
     
  4. narabdela

    narabdela who?

    If I had been living in Scotland and eligible to vote in the last Independence Referendum, I would have voted ‘No’

    Brexit has changed all that. It would be a very definite ‘Yes’ if there was another one.
     
  5. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr pfm Member

    I think Scotland should have the right to choose. But I also think Westminster should do everything possible to make the Scots want to remain part of the Union - something which has the potential to be greater than the sum of its parts, but which is hobbled by the London-centric outlook of those with access to the levers of power.
     
    narabdela and ff1d1l like this.
  6. claire.foxx

    claire.foxx Gender Traitor

    Westminster tried that with the “Better together” promises that not one, to this date, have materialised. Your trust in Westminster as a benign force is ****ing harmful in its delusion.
     
    Spike55 and Rockmeister like this.
  7. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Yes but never the case for me before 2010. 2015’s GE outcome nailed it though and not just for me. The SNP going from 6 to 56 seats out of 59 in Scotland said it all. Tories caving to Farage and an EU referendum no one wanted up here. Now the doomsday scenario - an extremist Tory Party and toxic Brexit with the spectre of far right creeps entering Parliament with tickets they bought from the Brexit Company.
     
    Spike55, ff1d1l and narabdela like this.
  8. jimpey

    jimpey pfm Member

    I lived and worked in Scotland for 11 years and the majority of my extended family live there. If I thought that independence would bring benefits other than a (short lived) feeling of well being to the populace I would be in favour.

    The likely fall in living standards that would arise due to the difficulties in respect of currency, budget imbalance and so on would last a lot longer than any initial euphoria. An independent Scotland would be unable to qualify for EU membership on grounds of budget deficit alone despite the large majority in favour of remaining. Even wise heads in the SNP acknowledge the difficulty.

    IIRC one of the criteria for undertaking a future referendum on the matter is a convincing shift in Scottish public opinion and I'm not aware of that - perhaps I'm mislead by the wicked 'English' press?

    Jim
     
  9. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr pfm Member

    Nope. I have no illusions about Westminster. At the moment it is a largely malign force, and has been for some time.

    In truth, I was expressing a desire for what should ideally happen, which is also predicated on a rather closer to ideal model of Westminster government than we currently, er, enjoy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  10. Deej

    Deej Well-Known Member

    Another question would be how an independent country would rejoin the EU and whether it could?

    I would have no hesitation in voting SNP if I lived in Scotland. The chance to have an independent country run by a left-wing and progressive party who share a lot of my world view, compared to a hard-right Brexit obsessed Tory government run by an old Etonian. It's a no brainer.
     
    Spike55 likes this.
  11. mjw

    mjw pfm Member

    There was a brief discussion on joining the EU on Brexitcast. The first point was that Scotland wouldn’t be rejoining, they’d be a new country with a fresh application. The last country to join (ashamed that I can’t recall which one) had no significant difficulties in its process and it still took 12 years. That’s quite a time to spend in the great unknown.
    My answer to the question as an Englishman is, I don’t think you should but can’t blame you for wanting to.
     
  12. claire.foxx

    claire.foxx Gender Traitor

    I see it as a classic Narcissistic abuser relationship where one party has disempowered the other so that they cannot live without the other; giving them just enough to survive but not independently, controlling everything and allowing us autonomy only where it serves the abuser... add to this the rhetoric and “project fear” of scares of poverty and privation, the “you’ll never amount to anything”, “you cannot live alone”, “no one else will have you”, “you cannot survive without me” and “only we can know what’s best for you” the abuser maintains their control and remains free to do what they will. English Brexiters seem happy to throw themselves into an uncertain future built on disregard and unfounded optimism and yet the English dole out similar “project fear” rhetoric when Scottish independence is mentioned.

    Funny that.

    Here’s a spicy take. Maybe the poverty we are supposed to experience going it alone is exactly the same as it is with post Brexit England. Maybe things will be better with self determination than being at the mercy of a disgusting far right cabal that regards us as their little white ñíggėrs. An Ireland 2.0 — as it were. Having decades ago extracted myself from a narcissistic abuser relationship and still very much scarred by it, I see conceptual parallels in Scotland’s relationship with England.
     
    Spike55, tiggers, Nick_G and 3 others like this.
  13. SteveT

    SteveT pfm Member

    Sorry for being so slow and not being as perceptive as some of the pro Remain and pro Scottish Independence protagonists but if Westminster is such a malign force holding back the Scottish people why not get the SNP to effect change within the current system instead of running away from it. A bit like the UK MEPS effecting change against overwhelming odds in the European Parliament. Oh hang on a second I think I might have misunderstood the situation.
     
    richgilb likes this.
  14. richgilb

    richgilb Admonishtrator

    It would perhaps be fairer if the other countries in the union were invited to vote, as per this poll, sort of. Looks like a double winner.
     
  15. Caledon1297

    Caledon1297 pfm Member

    From the SNP's manifesto for the 2016 Holyrood election:

    '...the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.'
     
    ff1d1l and kendo like this.
  16. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    We’re just wanting to get independence done and move on.
     
  17. Funk

    Funk pfm Member

    A few thoughts...

    1) Scotland is in no position to make it alone. It already relies on subsidies from England under the Barnett Formula and would be economically borked if it left.

    2) Currency: use the £ with no say in it? That'd be like the UK using the € and being out of the EU. If you're going alone, you need a currency of your own.

    3) Would be ineligible to join the EU as a standalone country. Here's the thing I don't get though - Scotland has representation in Westminster. It also has its own devolved Government which is in charge of most things in Scotland. Why so eager to jettison Westminster (with the aforementioned representation) only to cede back to an even more remote entity in Brussels (which I believe is as at least as self-serving and aloof as others have said Westminster is). Frying pan and fire perhaps?

    4) In addition to financial subsidies under Barnett, a lot of Govt projects are pushed up to Scotland to 'share the love' (a great example of this is shipbuilding). If Scotland leaves the UK, there would be no choice but to pull things like shipbuilding back to the remaining members, punting it to Portsmouth for example.

    5) It's ironic that Scotland talks down the UK leaving the EU, saying it would be disastrous etc etc, only to then champion leaving the UK (and let's not forget that the IndyRef was supposedly a 'once-in-a-generation opportunity to vote').

    Here's the thing - I'm in England and I didn't want Scotland to leave in the last referendum and was glad when it didn't. However the IndyRef brought out an unusually high amount of 'anti-English' sentiment and I'll be honest it narked me a little at the time. If all that flares up again only a few years after that 'one-time' vote then do you know what? I'd support Scotland leaving. The rest of the UK would do just fine (being, as it is, one of the largest economies in the world), we'd make savings by not subsidising Scotland, regenerate other areas of the rUK with public services etc moving back south etc.

    One thing is clear; the parallels (and irony) with the EU vote are striking - and you can't keep asking the question over and over when some people think it's the 'wrong' answer that was returned. If we're going to have Scottish IndyRefs every few years then I'd rather they just get it done and bugger off.

    Or as Richgilb says - ask the rUK to vote on it and Scottish independence would probably be achieved in short order...
     
  18. richgilb

    richgilb Admonishtrator

    Put the vote out to the entire union; done and dusted I am sure.
     
  19. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    This’ll be the first time a country has been made to leave the EU against the wishes of its majority and the first time such a state would be applying to rejoin. Then of course theres the question of EU sentiment toward a political leader like Johnson and his faction with the Tory Party who’ve not only sought to leave the EU but have publicly voiced intent to undermine it and have active plans to deregulate and compete which will de facto undermine the EU. Context matters.
     
  20. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    As in put the Brexit vote to the whole EU population?
     
    claire.foxx, ff1d1l and Caledon1297 like this.

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