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Should Scotland be an independent country?

Should Scotland be an independent country?

  • Total voters
    132
  • Poll closed .
Looks like there have been some sensible posts overnight from Gassor. Shame they've been dismissed. It's clear the nationalists want to break from the UK regardless of the cost in misery to millions of Scots and without consideration for how long that misery will last.

Here are some gems from last night...
Haggis: i thought we were keeping the pound sterling initially?
Colin L: Scottish independence isn’t about the next 5 or 10 years, its about the next 500.
Hugh: Nothing to see. Just more chaff.

Haggis: You can't "keep the pound" and it just works all on its own. You need a policy. What is it?
Colin L: Ah, so it's going to take 500 years. I understood you are prepared to write off the next generation of Scots but I got that one wrong. 500 years! Wow...

A couple of days ago, Colin L posted a wonderful tirade about me and about the tone of my posts. Yes, they aren't the best written, and yes you don't like the message so it's all going to look bad. However, what I've noticed is how the tone of posts from the nationalists are generally dismissive of everyone who disagrees with them, even replies to Scots who haven't jumped on the Nicola bandwagon. It is just a casual dismissal with either sarcasm, waffle or insults.

I genuinely sympathise with some of the comments from nationalists, for example...
Haggis:i see daily, the contempt in which our elected reps are held by their superior counterparts in westminster.
I see that too and it's bloody awful, however, from the tories it's not just aimed toward the Scots, is it?

You've convinced yourselves yours is some kind of fluffy, loveable nationalism, but all you're doing in this thread is confirming how ugly nationalism is.

How about this for a slogan...

"LET'S GET INDEPENDENCE DONE"

I feel sorry for Gassor and other decent and sensible Scots. I still hope they win out.
 
I love the idea that 'we' posting here, need to have worked out how 'the currency' issue will be resolved, how long it will be before the EU accepts us, the future of this country if we leave....It's just mildly absurd. I was an Art teacher. How the flippin heck do I know those answers?
One assumes that IF a referendum is offered, these things will be revealed, having been worked out by bankers, industrialists, politicians etc etc etc, which none of us are (surprise!!!!), and when we read their papers, we will cast our vote.
Then there are things called imponderables.

Still, here's an answerable question. If you don't want Scots independence, can you put forward a paper here, now, which provides the kind of detail to convince several million Scots why they should not go it alone. What are you so terrified of that is, you think, going to happen to the rest of the UK should Scotland leave?
Facts. Actual facts, not journalistic opinions will need to be presented.
Thanks.
 
Rockmeister said:
I love the idea that 'we' posting here, need to have worked out how 'the currency' issue will be resolved, how long it will be before the EU accepts us, the future of this country if we leave....It's just mildly absurd. I was an Art teacher. How the flippin heck do I know those answers?
One assumes that IF a referendum is offered, these things will be revealed, having been worked out by bankers, industrialists, politicians etc etc etc, which none of us are (surprise!!!!), and when we read their papers, we will cast our vote.
Then there are things called imponderables.
Click to expand...

Not if it's modelled on the Brexit referendum ... they'll just expect you to vote for something without knowing what it is.... it won't work unless you're as stupid as the Brexit mob which I doubt.
 
:)
I am that stupid probably but with one difference. Despite my general despair at the morality of politicians, I have found that in Scotland, that view is unfounded. The breed here (I exclude some conservative MP's) do seem to be mostly more sincere and well intentioned. That is, for the people, not for themselves (Rees Mogg alikes there are NONE). Anyway, nearly everyone learns from experience.
Don't they?
 
Rockmeister said:
I love the idea that 'we' posting here, need to have worked out how 'the currency' issue will be resolved, how long it will be before the EU accepts us, the future of this country if we leave....It's just mildly absurd. I was an Art teacher. How the flippin heck do I know those answers?
One assumes that IF a referendum is offered, these things will be revealed, having been worked out by bankers, industrialists, politicians etc etc etc, which none of us are (surprise!!!!), and when we read their papers, we will cast our vote.
Then there are things called imponderables.

Still, here's an answerable question. If you don't want Scots independence, can you put forward a paper here, now, which provides the kind of detail to convince several million Scots why they should not go it alone. What are you so terrified of that is, you think, going to happen to the rest of the UK should Scotland leave?
Facts. Actual facts, not journalistic opinions will need to be presented.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
I’m interested by the personalities it attracts.
 
tiggers said:
This thread can be summed up in a nutshell - England chooses to leave the EU because they want to take back control and hate Johnny Foreigner and yet refuse to let the Scots do the same for far better and more logical reasons.... ****ing hypocrites! Yes I'm English before you ask?
Click to expand...

The people who moan on about the idea of Scottish independence are very probably those who voted for Brexit, or are too scared to admit it on pfm.

Jack
 
of course, people are correct when they say that there remain some unanswered questions. one of the bigger ones for example is one which exercises me greatly - just what are we going to do with all that cod?
 
jackbarron said:
The people who moan on about the idea of Scottish independence are very probably those who voted for Brexit, or are too scared to admit it on pfm.

Jack
Click to expand...
Exactly the same condescension toward Ireland was on open display for decades and the personality type that most often indulges in it are themselves minnows usually. There’s crossover with attitudes toward women etc.
 
Rockmeister said:
:)
I am that stupid probably but with one difference. Despite my general despair at the morality of politicians, I have found that in Scotland, that view is unfounded. The breed here (I exclude some conservative MP's) do seem to be mostly more sincere and well intentioned. That is, for the people, not for themselves (Rees Mogg alikes there are NONE).
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more, I've said for a long time that I envy the Scottish as they have politicians that in the main seem to be there for the right reasons.
 
It would sadden me to see Scotland leave the UK but if they vote democratically to leave then this must be observed. One potentially positive point for the reamining parts of the UK after Scotland leave would be the relocation of the UK military bases to England, Northern Ireland and Wales.
Obviously these installations cannot remain in Scotland if they leave the UK, and I can image that moving bases like Lossiemouth and Faslane to South Wales as an example, would give that part of the UK a massive and long overdue boost to their economy.
 
HairyHaggis said:
of course, people are correct when they say that there remain some unanswered questions. one of the bigger ones for example is one which exercises me greatly - just what are we going to do with all that cod?
Click to expand...

What cod? EU has just halved the North Sea quota. This will affect Scottish fisherman most of all, although 60% of the reduced quota will still be available for Spanish, French, and Dutch fleets to take whilst the Scottish fleet are tied up.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/halving-north-sea-cod-quota-will-hurt-scots-fishing-fsl7fghqw

So the answer to your question is that U.K. Incl Scotland will continue to import most of its cod from Norway, Iceland, and Russia, all unaffected by EU CFP and with better-managed fisheries.

Something else to consider on the road to Indie land. The shopping list grows...
 
HydeLea said:
It would sadden me to see Scotland leave the UK but if they vote democratically to leave then this must be observed. One potentially positive point for the reamining parts of the UK after Scotland leave would be the relocation of the UK military bases to England, Northern Ireland and Wales.
Obviously these installations cannot remain in Scotland if they leave the UK, and I can image that moving bases like Lossiemouth and Faslane to South Wales as an example, would give that part of the UK a massive and long overdue boost to their economy.
Click to expand...
I think the Welsh might have a thing or two to say about that.
 
Presumably Konteebos you are referring to all those countries that left the Commonwealth such as Zimbabwe, Maldives, Somalia, Sudan.

As for all the sneering and arrogance, that came from the those posters who wished to Remain and happened to be Scottish surely. Having condemned the Gammon for wanting to Leave they have conveniently forgotten (collective amnesia) all the reasons why Leavers were beneath contempt. Held to account by a different set of rules. Mealy mouthed hypocrisy and cant of the highest order.
 
HydeLea said:
It would sadden me to see Scotland leave the UK but if they vote democratically to leave then this must be observed. One potentially positive point for the reamining parts of the UK after Scotland leave would be the relocation of the UK military bases to England, Northern Ireland and Wales.
Obviously these installations cannot remain in Scotland if they leave the UK, and I can image that moving bases like Lossiemouth and Faslane to South Wales as an example, would give that part of the UK a massive and long overdue boost to their economy.
Click to expand...
I do enjoy your Friday lunchtime broadcasts- what kind of institution are you transmitting from? To come to your interesting ideas though- the nuclear deterrent and its infrastructure will have to go. For those unaware of the scale of that installation, it’s going to take 20 years to relocate and at eye watering cost. Bear in mind this is in a period of increasing strategic risk- China doesn’t take kindly to an ex fireplace salesman threatening them with a couple of gun boats in the South China Sea and Russia has twice used WMDs on British soil now.

Moving military bases to Northern Ireland is one of your more fruity, uneducated suggestions because Northern Ireland is about to blow. Can you imagine imagine offering such a target rich environment and provocation to dissident Republican terrorists? Besides, I think N.Ireland will have left the U.K. before Scotland does.

Yes, the lot will have to go from Scotland in the absence of a treaty arrangement. I’m sure the ground rent on Faslane and Coulport will be a handy source of revenue.
 
It saddens me a little, but I actually think the time is right for Scotland to go it's own way. That some can take a 500 year view is admirable. There's a lot of work for them to do, and tightening of belts (aka austerity)

The most recent GERS figures suggest that Scotland ran a deficit 7 times higher than U.K. As a whole last year, despite cutting Public services. The notional scot GERS deficit was £12.6 BN or 7% of GDP including oil revenues. By comparison, the U.K. Deficit is 1.1% of its GDP.

State spending in Scotland was higher per head than U.K. Average, yet taxes collected per head (including oil) were less in Scotland than for U.K. As a whole.

So what? Well EU membership rules clearly and with no exceptions require member states to have budget deficit below 3%. At 7% Scotland notional deficit is by far the highest in the EU. Cyprus is next highest (4.8%), Romanias was 3%, with France at 2.5%. Sturgeon has refused to meet media to discuss GERS figures, hardly surprising, but they will come out in separation plans. They could well be her downfall.

An independent Scotland would have to cut its deficit by more than half to <3%in short term to be able to even apply for EU membership. How might they do that with decreasing oil revenues, declining fisheries etc?

Well you don't have to be an economics genius to work out that they might therefore either have to raise more taxes, have significant growth, and to spend significantly less on services - that means hello to higher tax and austerity measures.

Or most likely all three.

I wish them well, but suggest they keep eyes wide open for the tasks ahead. It should also really be their choice not U.K.s. This is important.

My thoughts turn towards the effect of separation on U.K.

HoC for starters. New constituencies once the SNP rabble depart?
MOD next, Clyde, Rosyth (Babcock) etc, all to be repatriated, along with their lucrative contracts.
Banks. How will we carve up RBS Golden shares? Will they wish to remain in Scotland without certainties on currencies, lender of last resort underwriting etc.
The list goes on.. UK leaving EU could well be easier by comparison

Will produce many threads and discussions for sure.

Good luck Scotland. Some of us will miss you, but gotta do, what you gotta do..
 
ff1d1l said:
I think the Welsh might have a thing or two to say about that.
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Indeed, especially if they also get the £10bn Babcock/Cavendish nuclear decommissioning contracts to swell the local economy.
 
I see for the most part the relentless chaff from the nationalists continues almost without pause.
 
guest said:
What cod? EU has just halved the North Sea quota. This will affect Scottish fisherman most of all, although 60% of the reduced quota will still be available for Spanish, French, and Dutch fleets to take whilst the Scottish fleet are tied up.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/halving-north-sea-cod-quota-will-hurt-scots-fishing-fsl7fghqw

So the answer to your question is that U.K. Incl Scotland will continue to import most of its cod from Norway, Iceland, and Russia, all unaffected by EU CFP and with better-managed fisheries.

Something else to consider on the road to Indie land. The shopping list grows...
Click to expand...

i had meant that in jest. but, some food for thought:

https://energydesk.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/

the fishing industry is maybe not quite as you see it. and a lot of the quota is already sold off...mainly to spanish boats i understand. go figure
 
davidsrsb said:
Northern Ireland does not work because there is a weekly missile convoy from the base down to Burghfield
Click to expand...

correct. that's why we got the glen fruin "military" road + the erskine bridge. no other reason.
 
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