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Should Scotland be an independent country?

Should Scotland be an independent country?

  • Total voters
    132
  • Poll closed .
TheDecameron said:
Mike, in normal times I’d say yes - but we are no longer there. We are entering the biggest period of turbulence since the Second World War. Johnson got up, in a moment that would make the real Trump blush and said “ I don’t believe it’s vainglorious to state that we are entering a new golden age”. The dissonance is shocking.
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We aren’t entering it, man, we’ve been in it since 2016 and you want to add to it.
 
TheDecameron said:
Mike, in normal times I’d say yes - but we are no longer there. We are entering the biggest period of turbulence since the Second World War. Johnson got up, in a moment that would make the real Trump blush and said “ I don’t believe it’s vainglorious to state that we are entering a new golden age”. The dissonance is shocking.
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Dec, I take your point, but I do wonder if - and forgive my choice of words here but I can't think how else to put this - Johnson might not be prepared to effectively "buy off" Scotland short of another risky referendum. I could be quite wrong of course, but whatever he does, there is trouble ahead in Scotland and Northetrn Ireland which he could well do without.
 
Colin L said:
you would seek to damage the Scots who voted to be independent just out of spite at them voting against what you want. That’s a very mean, petty, Tory sort of attitude.
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sorry to keep harping on about it, but this would not be for the first time. see for example the darien expediton. scotland brought to its knees by a spiteful england, thus forcing the act of union. an unequal joining of 2 independent nations for the benefit of...i wonder who?

it's a funny (or ironic, take your pick) footnote that the bank of england was founded by a scotsman, with an eye to the general good. the naming of the bank, with hindsight, was a tad unfortunate. however, it went forward to become the bank of the government, by then the government of the newly created UK and so, both scotland, and england, are rightful heirs to the institution. neither country has a sole claim on it.
 
Colin L said:
Yes, there are no easy solutions and initially economic management would likely be very tough. If the Tories get the hard no-deal leave they seem to crave this will make the UK border issue a major problem as well.

So let’s just give up and our interests be ignored forever by an English government.

Or maybe we should recognise that Scottish GDP, population, natural resources and tech place us as a mid-rank EU state like Sweden and Ireland. Strangely they seem to do OK. Transitional problems are temporary. Painful but temporary.
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Do you not find it a bit of a concern that even in the SNP at this late stage there is no clarity about what currency an independent Scotland would adopt? What is a more fundamental question about any country than what currency does it use? The success or failure of any new country rests on how well it manages it's economic policy. It is impossible to gauge this in any way without knowing what currency it will be using. There may be a second referendum in the next few years, would you not expect that the currency issue would be resolved by now so that a very difficult and fraught issue could be brought to the public's eye with most of the problematic issues having been examined and solutions put forward?

Does it not worry you that for all the fine talk about creating a fairer society, more investment in schools and hospitals and improving wage levels for the lower-paid there is little consideration of how Scotland would deal with it's fiscal and monetary policy which is directly tied to the currency it will use.
 
i thought we were keeping the pound sterling initially?

here's another funny thought. IF we were to become free of westminster, and subsequently joined the eu within, say 2 or 3 years (not impossible, see for example finland or austria) then we would have a veto on any trade deal between rUK and the eu, assuming a deal by that time had not been concluded (a very real possibility).

conversely, IF westminster got the deal they say they want (free, frictionless trade), then we, as part of the eu, would have the same trading arrangement with the rUK. no?
 
gassor said:
Do you not find it a bit of a concern that even in the SNP at this late stage there is no clarity about what currency an independent Scotland would adopt? What is a more fundamental question about any country than what currency does it use? The success or failure of any new country rests on how well it manages it's economic policy. It is impossible to gauge this in any way without knowing what currency it will be using. There may be a second referendum in the next few years, would you not expect that the currency issue would be resolved by now so that a very difficult and fraught issue could be brought to the public's eye with most of the problematic issues having been examined and solutions put forward?

Does it not worry you that for all the fine talk about creating a fairer society, more investment in schools and hospitals and improving wage levels for the lower-paid there is little consideration of how Scotland would deal with it's fiscal and monetary policy which is directly tied to the currency it will use.
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No, not really. All to be negotiated. If you are so frit of the worst case scenario happening you’d never do anything.
Scottish independence isn’t about the next 5 or 10 years, its about the next 500.
 
Ponty said:
What do you think Sturgeon can or will actually do if Boris just keeps on telling her to jog on?
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I guess it depends how strongly the Scottish people feel about independence. The history of Ireland is instructive. I can't find the actual figures right now, but the majority in favour of a complete break with the UK in the early 20th century was relatively small, and look what happened, and it's still not finished.
 
MikeMA said:
Dec, I take your point, but I do wonder if - and forgive my choice of words here but I can't think how else to put this - Johnson might not be prepared to effectively "buy off" Scotland short of another risky referendum. I could be quite wrong of course, but whatever he does, there is trouble ahead in Scotland and Northetrn Ireland which he could well do without.
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In normal circumstances you’d have to be mad to go for independence just as you would for Brexit. Paradoxically the whole of the U.K. being in the EU with a period of sustained growth, as under Blair, would make independence quite straight forward. No customs border, regulatory alignment.
The economic and social prospects of the U.K. are however going to deteriorate and the recruiting sergeant for Scottish independence will be Boris Johnson himself. Eyes in Scotland will be very much on the Irish economy- with Britain leaving the EU, a border going up, it’s going to be badly damaged and it’s an indication of what Scotland will be facing. Voters have to be prepared for this. There are no longer any good options, just least bad.
 
HairyHaggis said:
i thought we were keeping the pound sterling initially?

here's another funny thought. IF we were to become free of westminster, and subsequently joined the eu within, say 2 or 3 years (not impossible, see for example finland or austria) then we would have a veto on any trade deal between rUK and the eu, assuming a deal by that time had not been concluded (a very real possibility).

conversely, IF westminster got the deal they say they want (free, frictionless trade), then we, as part of the eu, would have the same trading arrangement with the rUK. no?
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Keeping the pound means having no control over monetary policy or the exchange rate and is hardly being economically independent. And it begs the question 'and then what?'. As to your last point Scotland could take 20 years+ to achieve the economic criteria required to join the EU.
 
Colin L said:
No, not really. All to be negotiated. If you are so frit of the worst case scenario happening you’d never do anything.
Scottish independence isn’t about the next 5 or 10 years, its about the next 500.
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You can't leave the UK without a clear idea of how you will manage the country's currency and therefore it's income, that would lead to Scotland would become a basketcase overnight. These things don't just fall into place they require planning and negotiation and that means a lot of time and effort - years of it. You can't just leave where you live with no clear means of getting by in the world and just say I'll be alright in 10 or 20 years. Yes, you probably will, but in the meantime you may have to survive on the streets and that won't do you any good.

The SNP lost the last referendum because the economics did not stack up, all you are saying is that the economics are still not sorted but that doesn't matter we'll be fine in 500 years.
 
Let’s see how the Brexit turd matures. The Tories took Britain out of the EU on a blatantly false prospectus, with no idea of the final destination or the quality of any deal achievable with the EU. Instead they indulged themselves and the public in grossly misjudged false optimism about their negotiating strength or rather lack of. The coming years are going to be an opportunity both politically and for Scottish Government to learn from the mistakes of Westminster. We can’t turn the clock back and we are heading politically on a very different path from England and with a thumping democratic mandate.
 
Let’s see how the SNP turd matures. Sturgeon to take Scotland out of the UK on a blatantly false prospectus, with no idea of the final destination or the quality of any deal achievable with the EU or UK. Instead she indulges herself and the public in grossly misjudged false optimism about her negotiating strength or rather lack of.
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-papua-new-guinea-south-pacific-a9242291.html

i wonder what could possibly be going through the minds of these people? don't they realise that being an appendage of another nation is the greatest thing they could aspire to? how dare they think otherwise?

scootland is undoubtedly the last rump of empire. a colony in all but name. a useful resource with zero cost to the beneficiary. i see daily, the contempt in which our elected reps are held by their superior counterparts in westminster. hey ho. ultimately it is up to scoots to decide to continue the humiliation, or to release ourselves from this unequal partnership and set ourselves on a course of more equal footing, with our neighbours and the world.

in the meantime, my new amp has arrived :)
 
If Johnson's government allowed a second ref on independence immediately would the SNP hold such a referendum ?
 
scootland is undoubtedly the last rump of empire. a colony in all but name. a useful resource with zero cost to the beneficiary. i see daily, the contempt in which our elected reps are held by their superior counterparts in westminster. hey ho. ultimately it is up to scoots to decide to continue the humiliation, or to release ourselves from this unequal partnership and set ourselves on a course of more equal footing, with our neighbours and the world.

Lets hope those Scots who, when they they come to make a decision on whether to stay or leave the Union, are more intelligent and foresighted enough to not think like you HairyHaggis. You have heard of the Barnet formula haven't you? The pitiful whining is enough to make a grown man cry.
 
This thread can be summed up in a nutshell - England chooses to leave the EU because they want to take back control and hate Johnny Foreigner and yet refuse to let the Scots do the same for far better and more logical reasons.... ****ing hypocrites! Yes I'm English before you ask?
 
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