Ortofon's MC Anna and 12" arms

[merlin]

You have to listen...this silly 'guru' isn't buying a £20,000 deck...you are.

I suspect James is paying nothing like retail Paskinn. I would imagine he's getting a very attractive deal on the 30/2 in light of the 20/3 hitting the market and the rumours of a 30/3 to follow in the not too distant future.

 

[Blzebub]

I would agree Pete, it's a more natural sounding arm on a more substantial table.

There is no telling James though. What he elects to buy is the "bestist ever" so unless we want page after page of the usual guff and waffle, tell me about the ETF on the Wam

Well, actually we have page after page of 30/12 owners telling me that what they have is the bestest ever. I am merely questioning the value of a longer tonearm.

Hasn't gone down so well...

 

[Blzebub]

I suspect James is paying nothing like retail Paskinn. I would imagine he's getting a very attractive deal on the 30/2 in light of the 20/3 hitting the market and the rumours of a 30/3 to follow in the not too distant future.

There is no 30/3. I checked.

I've told you why I chose the 30/2. You don't like it? Tough.

 

[merlin]

Have a listen to Merlin's setup. That's what tracking error sounds like ;-)

Just for you James, to stop your ceaseless trolling.



Please excuse the slight distortion but try getting that precision with your little SME tool

 

[merlin]

There is no 30/3. I checked.

Not yet.

You checked with who? I've heard it's definitely in the pipeline and it's the oldest design in the range now so that makes sense.

I'm sure you'll have some fun with the two though, before any range changes are announced.

I don't think anyone here is claiming anything is the best ever (we'll leave that to you). And contrary to your opinion, none of us give a flying monkey's what you buy - other than to know that we are going to be bored senseless with comments and threads about it for months to come. I think some have just pointed out that it is odd to make big purchases without at least trying to hear the products in question. Unless of course you are getting a "deal"

 

[Blzebub]

Not yet.

You checked with who? I've heard it's definitely in the pipeline and it's the oldest design in the range now so that makes sense.

I'm sure you'll have some fun with the two though, before any range changes are announced.

With SME. If the 30/2 gets upgraded, I'll upgrade. Fairly obvious. They've just brought out a revised PS, as it happens.

Whether you like it, or not, there are known problems with 12" tonearms.

 

[F1eng]

You might also want to improve the structure/enviroment in which the turntable resides. Lots of factors and variables including the level of isolation built into the turntable and/or platform that the turntable is placed.

When I started work for Garrard in the engineering dept one of the first thing they got me to do was a rumble test.
It was completely impossible to get a consistent reading in the lab. The problem was not music feedback thought.
After leaving me struggling for a while my boss showed me the problem.
If you just looked at the cartridge output of the turntable sitting on a "rigid" bench on th 4th floor of a concrete building you could see the output due to a bus driving by on the road the other side of the carpark.
These are sensitive transducers.
For all measurements in the lab the subject turntable was put on a stack of paving slabs suspended from a huge frame by tension springs.

Two things came from this experience, first I located my kit in the adjacent room with speaker wires through the wall to the listening room. This was disappointingly dull sounding, so I came to the conclusion that I liked the delayed feedback, it is after all just a touch of buckshee extra reverb.
Secondly I decided any unsprung deck picked up -much- more ambient vibration than a sprung unit. One would expect quite a lot of extra bass...

 

[Jek]

Comparing one 9" arm with a 12" arm from a completely different brand, probably on a different deck and with a different cartridge tells you nothing about the play off between longer and shorter effective length in terms of sound quality

Bub buys based on faith - scientific principles seem to be alien to him. You don't need them to be a medical doctor in all honesty. Its a beautiful and simple world unburdened by the unsettling complexities of evidence or facts

 

[Tony L]

Two things came from this experience, first I located my kit in the adjacent room with speaker wires through the wall to the listening room. This was disappointingly dull sounding, so I came to the conclusion that I liked the delayed feedback, it is after all just a touch of buckshee extra reverb.
Secondly I decided any unsprung deck picked up -much- more ambient vibration than a sprung unit. One would expect quite a lot of extra bass...

To my mind there is a rather interesting world that exists between 'sprung' and 'unsprung'. It's where things like the Roksan Xerxes, Nottingham Analogue, Regas, Technics and for that matter my 301 live. All have some degree of decoupling from their environment; rubber 'blobs' in the case of the Xerxes, compliant feet in the case of the rest. I can think of few 'rigid' / 'solid' decks that are hard-coupled to their support, I can only bring to mind things like some VPIs with hard pointed feet.

 

[Blzebub]

I don't think anyone here is claiming anything is the best ever (we'll leave that to you). And contrary to your opinion, none of us give a flying monkey's what you buy - other than to know that we are going to be bored senseless with comments and threads about it for months to come. I think some have just pointed out that it is odd to make big purchases without at least trying to hear the products in question. Unless of course you are getting a "deal"

Missed your edit.

If you don't care what I buy, why all the outrage? If you are bored, read something else. If you think all turntables need to be auditioned, that's OK. We don't all think the same way.

I always negotiate a discount, absolutely always.

 

[Blzebub]

Comparing one 9" arm with a 12" arm from a completely different brand, probably on a different deck and with a different cartridge tells you nothing about the play off between longer and shorter effective length in terms of sound quality

Bub buys based on faith - scientific principles seem to be alien to him. You don't need them to be a medical doctor in all honesty. Its a beautiful and simple world unburdened by the unsettling complexities of evidence or facts

It tells you about tracking error, though, as does comparing the CD version of an album with the vinyl. I don't have it. If 12" arms were all they are cracked up to be, then the Caliburn Cobra would have been a 12", not a 9". I think the 30/12 is really aimed at the Asian market.

I am quite happy buying the SME 30/2 based on my experience with the 20, and reviews of the 30/2, plus Bob Graham's previous use of it.

I really don't know what you are on about with your rant about medicine.

 

[Tony L]

You are implying the "Asian market" somehow know less than you. Which is, well, somewhat daft!

 

[Blzebub]

You are implying the "Asian market" somehow know less than you. Which is, well, somewhat daft!

No I'm not. It's well known that the Japanese market loves 12" tonearms. Nothing pejorative at all. They also love twin bass drivers, and the ATC tower 300 is aimed at the same market.

 

[merlin]

Feck me.

Bub's suddenly an expert on the Japanese audio market.

Who's pulling his strings

 

[Jek]

How do you pick out tracking error amidst all the other variables and differences in the comparison Bub? Even more fundamentally what is it you are listening for?

 

[merlin]

To my mind there is a rather interesting world that exists between 'sprung' and 'unsprung'. It's where things like the Roksan Xerxes, Nottingham Analogue, Regas, Technics and for that matter my 301 live. All have some degree of decoupling from their environment; rubber 'blobs' in the case of the Xerxes, compliant feet in the case of the rest. I can think of few 'rigid' / 'solid' decks that are hard-coupled to their support, I can only bring to mind things like some VPIs with hard pointed feet.

I think there's a lot of unscientific thinking with turntable isolation. Certainly my experience was wholly so! I decided on mass damping with sand filled pillars and all sorts. This is what finally worked for me.



Weighed about 140kg as I recall but did sound rather good and was totally unaffected by foot fall. Not sure it was as effective against acoustic feedback mind.

 

[paskinn]

A 'well-informed source' assures me there are no plans for a 30/3. Or even vague intentions along those lines. The upgrading of the '20' series was forced on the factory by the arrival of the 20-12, which was needed for the new 12inch arms. Like most efficient firms, SME needs plenty of parts which can be used in several decks..By upgrading to the 20/3 the firm ensured parts could be better shared with the 20-12. Parts are already shared within the 30 range, so the need for further commonality isn't great.In effect, you now have 'long' and 'short' versions of the two suspended ranges. That's more economic for SME.
You can see the same with the arms, the Five has stayed essentially unchanged for 25 years, but the components have been shared with the Four and 309.
Presumably at some point there could be a new model, but it seems unlikely in the next year or two.
Incidentally, SME are not immune to the tough times, a slackening in their general engineering business has led to staff cuts of about 25%.

 

[Mike Reed]

Quite apart from any theoretical or perceived sonic advantages of 12" over 9", I find the cueing and general manipulation of my 12" to be easier and more secure than my previous SME Five.

Despite exhortations by others to remove the finger grip on my Five, I just didn't feel secure without it. My current 12" arm doesn't have one, but it's just so much easier to put where you want it, because there's more arm tube to hold ! Having said that, the SME wand is tapered, which didn't help this aspect.

Besides, 12" arms do look better and more aesthetically balanced on many decks, i.m.o. A turntable is, to most of us, a thing of beauty, n'est-ce-pas?

 

[Blzebub]

Feck me.

Bub's suddenly an expert on the Japanese audio market.

Who's pulling his strings

Well, the thing about the ATC 300 towers came from Bob Polley. The 12" tonearm thing is well-known.

The fact is, the V12 sounds slow and lifeless in comparison with the V. These things are all compromises. If SME can sell a few xx/12 versions in the UK, then so much the better for them.

paskinn has posted on another forum that the dynamics are compromised with the V12. That's not a sound I'm looking for.

 

[merlin]

Do carry on James - we need a laugh.