advertisement


Do Japanese amps do PRAT?

Surely about the only thing it can be about is either.

a) dynamic transient handling - this could be an issue on amps with poor PSUs, poor PSU regulation and insufficient reservoir capacitance etc. This could be a problem on any bad amp design, but assuming this has been covered sufficiently then any amp not suffering this should really be timing solid.

b) artificial colouration giving the impression of timing (because musicians listen on non-prat non-naim stuff and I don't hear them crying about the timing being lost)

c) other factors (human factors)
 
And how much music was recorded on Naim stuff, not talking about monitoring here, but tape recorders, do Naim make them with extra added prat?
 
Basil said:
And how much music was recorded on Naim stuff, not talking about monitoring here, but tape recorders, do Naim make them with extra added prat?
Click to expand...

In days long ago when I was involved with such things I generally found that all the prat was user provided.
 
LouisB said:
Surely about the only thing it can be about

b) artificial colouration giving the impression of timing (because musicians listen on non-prat non-naim stuff and I don't hear them crying about the timing being lost)
Click to expand...

Lots of musicians have to our eyes not very good systems. Does that mean we are all wrong here? Or perhaps they don't have the money or have never heard of Naim. Musicians are surely experts in being musicians rather than sound quality experts or they would all be recording engineers. Some musicians have Naim systems. I know. I sold Naim to them. I'm an amateur musician with Naim (and others).

I will ask again, what is this artificial colouration ? Let's have some %ages, dBs, Hz etc. then relate that to a Naim CD player, one that's known to deliver good timing. This would help me understand the error of my ways. Also this also needs to be related to other "pacey " amps as these are the "only" things it can be about!!
 
fay spook said:
Lots of musicians have to our eyes not very good systems. Does that mean we are all wrong here? Or perhaps they don't have the money or have never heard of Naim. Musicians are surely experts in being musicians rather than sound quality experts or they would all be recording engineers. Some musicians have Naim systems. I know. I sold Naim to them. I'm an amateur musician with Naim (and others).

I will ask again, what is this artificial colouration ? Let's have some %ages, dBs, Hz etc. then relate that to a Naim CD player, one that's known to deliver good timing. This would help me understand the error of my ways. Also this also needs to be related to other "pacey " amps as these are the "only" things it can be about!!
Click to expand...
+1 for this I would als0 like more info on this artificial colouration creating timing, have to say i think this is a nonesense.

Timing is what it is, ask a musician, he will be able to explain this quite easily, colouration only ruins timing, not recreates it.

-1 for Basil

Hifi magazine reviewers are another lot who have old systems from their uni days, means nothing.
 
legolas said:
I was hoping for some useful replies before you round earth bullies close the thread down.
Click to expand...

It is delusional to think that all amplifiers are equal in reproducing the rhythm of music. Some capture it better than others and they manage it without manipulating the frequency response.

Short signal paths and hefty transformers seem to help.

I don't think Naim are the last word in PR&T, btw.

I think the Tube Distinctions valve pre and power amplifiers that I use make midrange Naim sound rather lethargic in comparison.

If you want to really screw up PR&T just add a graphic equaliser or active room correction.
 
fay spook said:
Lots of musicians have to our eyes not very good systems. Does that mean we are all wrong here? Or perhaps they don't have the money or have never heard of Naim. Musicians are surely experts in being musicians rather than sound quality experts or they would all be recording engineers. Some musicians have Naim systems. I know. I sold Naim to them. I'm an amateur musician with Naim (and others).

I will ask again, what is this artificial colouration ? Let's have some %ages, dBs, Hz etc. then relate that to a Naim CD player, one that's known to deliver good timing. This would help me understand the error of my ways. Also this also needs to be related to other "pacey " amps as these are the "only" things it can be about!!
Click to expand...

Musicians know exactly how things should sound as the music is inside their heads. Any old hi-fi system will therefore do the job as they just mentally fill in the gaps.
 
Basil said:
Fay, it's a sales gimmick.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you need to be telling LouisB. He's the one telling us it's an artificial colouration and not a sales gimmick. Maybe the anti brigade need to coordinate their argument!! Is it a distortion, a gimmick, made up or impossible in respect of an amplifier giving pace. My answer is none of these but I've already mentioned this so I won't dwell. Do the NAIT/8000 comparison to help get a feel for what's been discussed. Or a DNM/Quad.

I don't mind if you think a system's ability to be "musical" is a gimmick as I'm not trying to sell you hifi anymore. I've had my amps for years so they must be doing something right for me. My girlfriend has no pace or rhythm but I love her dearly so I do swing both ways.
 
Steven Toy said:
Musicians know exactly how things should sound as the music is inside their heads. Any old hi-fi system will therefore do the job as they just mentally fill in the gaps.
Click to expand...

True. To a degree. Some strive to create what they hear in their heads while playing and others don't . Musicians aren't all the same!! Much as we on this forum have different goals and expectations.
 
what I meant about musicians (well at least good ones) is they'll be the first to tell you if the timing is off on a system that isn't a prat.

think it's a myth to assume musicians don't appreciate hi-fi or would be a sound engineer if they did.

after all, they are what you're listening too, and what is all this fuss (hi-fi, this forum, all of this) all about, if not their work.

so I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss them. Especially in a generalising way. Bit ironic.

In regard to coloration, I mean perhaps something that emphasises transients, something like this. Does it exist, not sure.

but I suspect any good amp retains the timing, to think only certain brands do I suspect is just wishful thinking.

just my 2p
 
Steven Toy said:
Musicians know exactly how things should sound as the music is inside their heads. Any old hi-fi system will therefore do the job as they just mentally fill in the gaps.
Click to expand...

a joke presumably, or if not, one of the silliest things said, ever?

so, you're into hi-fi. What are you listening too?

Do you think Miles Davis or Buddy Rich or (insert favourite artist here) couldn't notice a good hi-fi or if there was a 'timing problem'.

They are the experts on timing, certainly compared to the average hi-fi boffin.

It's a bit weird to think they only make the music and don't know anything about how it should sound afterwards.
 
fay spook said:
Lots of musicians have to our eyes not very good systems. Does that mean we are all wrong here? Or perhaps they don't have the money or have never heard of Naim. Musicians are surely experts in being musicians rather than sound quality experts or they would all be recording engineers. Some musicians have Naim systems. I know. I sold Naim to them. I'm an amateur musician with Naim (and others).
Click to expand...

they do? but some also do not.

After all, who is going to care about the music more than a musician. Certainly aspects of composition such as timing!

Compared to the people you're listening too, most people here are the amateurs. They are the professionals.

Although I guess based on what you say (if true), we might infer cheaper systems do not destroy prat, since I would find it highly likely musicians will be the first to notice (and not tolerate it) above mere passive listeners. And so, if your claim is true, 'lots' are all too broke or too stupid to afford or have heard of Naim or good hi-fi, yet still enjoy music on cheaper systems anyway, without rushing to upgrade due to terrible timing problems...

In reality people of all walks of life enjoy good hi-fi and I've never seen a drummer or musician get all flustered over timing problems when for example something came on the radio. If they can't hear it, non-musicians can basically, dream on.

I suspect these systems we're considering do have a certain 'sound'. I'm all for systems that sound musical. I'm a bit sceptical about real timing issues though, regardless of where the amps are made!
 
I think it's time for those "believers" to explain to us "non-believers" just what specific characteristics typify or best describe these three terms of "pace", "rhythm" and "timing". This is probably best achieved via some form of analogy, so please ellucidate...

Let's first have something to convey the meaning of the word "pace" in the context of PRaT?

Then, let's have another explanation around "rhythm"...

And then, how about "timing"?

Finally, it would be useful if they explained the subtle nuances of difference between these three terms as used in "PRaT" and maybe some discussion around how these three factors combine to become the audio Nirvana aspect of PRaT.

Time to flex those powers of description...
 
Ragaman said:
You think timing is a gimmick?

Listen to a live band, ask them afterwards what they think of timing being a gimmick.

Nonesense.
Click to expand...

What a stupid thing to say, at no point did anyone say that.

No, timing isn't a gimmick. The idea that certain amplifiers are required to preserve it certainly is. More importantly, speaker placement and the way they work in a room will be of hugely greater significance provided the amplifiers are not being used out of spec or are broken.
 
DevillEars said:
I think it's time for those "believers" to explain to us "non-believers" just what specific characteristics typify or best describe these three terms of "pace", "rhythm" and "timing". This is probably best achieved via some form of analogy, so please ellucidate...

Let's first have something to convey the meaning of the word "pace" in the context of PRaT?

Then, let's have another explanation around "rhythm"...

And then, how about "timing"?

Finally, it would be useful if they explained the subtle nuances of difference between these three terms as used in "PRaT" and maybe some discussion around how these three factors combine to become the audio Nirvana aspect of PRaT.

Time to flex those powers of description...
Click to expand...
So you have never heard rhythm in music & need it explained to you?

You do know the meaning of rhythm i presume.

Google rhythm, this should explain things a little clearer for you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top