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Do Japanese amps do PRAT?

You cannot design amplifiers to 'do PRaT'.

You can manipulate the response or cause certain distortions to rise but the degree required in both cases is extremely rare in all but weird, expensive, non-hi-fi designs. Certainly no Naim or Linn amplifier has ever done this.

The PRaT 'effect' in Linn/Naim systems has come mainly from the loudspeakers which have some very distinct properties, helped in the days of old by a slightly colourful LP12 balance.
said this earlier, anyone listening, the amp can only let through pace, rhythm & timing if the band or artist are capable, some amps do, some don't. Some slow it, some gloss over it in favour of smoothness, politeness, air, space, soundstage effects, some just let the music flow, Naim, Rega, Exposure etc..
 
said this earlier, anyone listening, the amp can only let through pace, rhythm & timing if the band or artist are capable, some amps do, some don't.

Agreed but it's pretty difficult to find amplifiers incapable of allowing it through.
 
Agreed but it's pretty difficult to find amplifiers incapable of allowing it through.
They are many
Marantz, Sony, Pretty much every amp I have come across in the budget market in the last 40 years, Naim nait 2 is the king of allowing through prat from a capable band, just allows all the intended energy through unhindered.

There are exceptions, Rotel 931 mk2, rega brio 2000, Naim nait 3, nait 1, very early Cyrus models.

Nowadays most want to appeal to what is currently popular, soundstaging effects, 3 dimensional sound etc etc...
 
I enjoy whatever design parameters (or distortions) lead to a perception of PRAT. In terms of Jap amps, my Accuphase does it well but my my Pioneer A400X (this was not the original A400) definitely didn't do it nor did a later Pioneer AA9. Both Pioneers were replaced by Naim Naits (a Nait 2 and SN1 respectively) and the difference was clear to me. My two recent digital amps a Marantz 603 and a Mini One, although sweet and likeable in other respects, don't do it too well. As I've droned on elsewhere on this site, my Linx Nebula and Guru QM10 combo is a particular sweet spot for PRAT. The two must "distort" in mutually beneficial ways!
 
interesting discussion.
PRAT = British marketing
There are good amps. There are not so good amps.
And other components in the system matter too as does yr mood, ambient temp etc

What is 'flat earth' ?
 
You cannot design amplifiers to 'do PRaT'.

You can manipulate the response or cause certain distortions to rise but the degree required in both cases is extremely rare in all but weird, expensive, non-hi-fi designs. Certainly no Naim or Linn amplifier has ever done this.

The PRaT 'effect' in Linn/Naim systems has come mainly from the loudspeakers which have some very distinct properties, helped in the days of old by a slightly colourful LP12 balance.

You cannot design it to "do prat" but you can certainly bog up a layout so it fvcks up the sound, if you mess up the layout then it will still measure reasonably but the sound stage will be compressed, bass performance will be compromised. Most UK amplifiers were quite simple, so it was difficult to get wrong. Japanese amps tended to be more complicated, which made the layout more difficult, particularly the earthing which is all important if you don't want to mess up the phase information and destroy the imaging. Having said that I can see why people like naim amps but they sound harsh to me.
 
don't be a PRaT, don't believe in the marketing-speak. Listen for yourselves, there are great amps out there, many designed and made in Japan!

Having worked with UK and Japanese design teams, I can say that there is a big cultural difference between the two plus a complete different way of listening.

A typical Japanese listening session would cover classical music, female voices and small Jazz trios. The focus is on tonal balance and imaging. Yes, a Japanese amp can time well, but that's more accident than design feature.

A UK design team would look for timing more than imaging and tonal accuracy. They would listen more to Rock or Pop, not to typical Audiophile music. Some of them would not even sit in the middle between the speakers, but only listen to the emotional part of the music. Yes, a typical British amp can do image and can be tonal correct, but it would be accident, not a design feature.

OK, I'm maybe painting it bold, but in reality, it's a bit like this.

Having both philosophies in my listening room, I can swap within a minute and demonstrate the difference. Listening with the Naim system, the music is "riding" on the bass guitar and on the drum kit. The more classic set is doing the bigger, wider image, but you have difficulties to follow the rhythm in the music as easy as you do it with a NAIM system.

Both systems have been designed that way - by people with a type of sound in mind.

Whenever somebody is working on modifications, he is trying to adapt to his own "filter" to the kit. That might give more imaging on a NAIM system or smoother top end and the balance is OK for him.

From that experience, I stopped making a kind of religion out of it. :p

ATB KH
 
Good post finkaudio. One of the main reasons why i moved from Linn/Naim to WT/DV/SH was that i wanted to enjoy more of my classical and jazz albums which I now do. On many driving rock albums my old Naim system is missed though.

I believe that the Naim design philosophy emphasises the leading edge of notes rather than the decay and has a lot to do with the perceived speed which is interpreted as PRAT. This type of presentation isn't as good when the music errs on strident, brash or very complex. It leads to listening fatigue very quickly. I wouldn't go back as I now enjoy far more of my LP and CD collection.
 
wasn't there a post on here a little while back rediscovering old modest jap amps sounded just the same (or at least as good as) Naim stuff of the time. Except no one would listen to the Jap 'crap' at the time because obviously it was no good (at the time)...
 
wasn't there a post on here a little while back rediscovering old modest jap amps sounded just the same (or at least as good as) Naim stuff of the time. Except no one would listen to the Jap 'crap' at the time because obviously it was no good (at the time)...

...so what??? ;)
 
wasn't there a post on here a little while back rediscovering old modest jap amps sounded just the same (or at least as good as) Naim stuff of the time. Except no one would listen to the Jap 'crap' at the time because obviously it was no good (at the time)...

..at the time? Maintaining that crumbling paradigm is what is driving this thread.

A helpful post Fink, thanks, where would stuff like the NAD M3/ Plinius sit?
 
...so what??? ;)

exactly, I think that's my point. Someone says one thing, someone says something else. Does the prat thing exist as anything more than marketing of amp colourations. etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of UK hi-fi. I think we're lucky to have a wide range of hi quality manufacturers. I don't buy into the prat thing myself, having not heard anything particularly magical or impressing in that respect. I do think that naim stuff has a certain sound, perhaps good (best) for rock music. There are other very good UK based hi-fi manufacturers to look at if you want to keep an open mind on alternatives. Prat or no prat, the alternatives (jap or not) can also sound great, maybe better in some cases.
 
I believe that the Naim design philosophy emphasises the leading edge of notes rather than the decay and has a lot to do with the perceived speed which is interpreted as PRAT. This type of presentation isn't as good when the music errs on strident, brash or very complex. It leads to listening fatigue very quickly. I wouldn't go back as I now enjoy far more of my LP and CD collection.

...the best would be to lock a Japanese and a British engineer into one labListening room and let them out only after they are both happy with the sound. :D

ATB KH
 
exactly, I think that's my point. Someone says one thing, someone says something else. Does the prat thing exist as anything more than marketing of amp colourations. etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of UK hi-fi. I think we're lucky to have a wide range of hi quality manufacturers. I don't buy into the prat thing myself, having not heard anything particularly magical or impressing in that respect. I do think that naim stuff has a certain sound, perhaps good (best) for rock music. There are other very good UK based hi-fi manufacturers to look at if you want to keep an open mind on alternatives. Prat or no prat, the alternatives (jap or not) can also sound great, maybe better in some cases.

...not many left over in UK :eek:

I can understand if you are not (yet) in PRAT. I myself had to learn it many years ago during the time I did some work for Mordaunt Short and it was the MD of that period, Steve Harris, who was pushing me into it. Once you know, it's difficult to go back, but you need to learn it.

Musicians normally get into PRAT a lot easier, as playing together is all a but timing.

A pity you are not here in Germany. Should be fun to play you two setups from the same source with the same speakers and you can experience a total different presentation of the same music. You do not even need a double blind test for it :D:D:D (OK, bad yoke :rolleyes:)

ATB KH
 


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