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Do Japanese amps do PRAT?

A good start for an amp is one that doesn't attempt to emphasise any one thing over another and one that sounds at home on all styles of music you throw at it. Unless you only ever listen to one type of music. May not sound so immediately impressive or recognisable, but it's the right, the honest thing for an amp to do. You had just one job to do, at least do it faithfully.
 
...not many left over in UK :eek:

I can understand if you are not (yet) in PRAT. I myself had to learn it many years ago during the time I did some work for Mordaunt Short and it was the MD of that period, Steve Harris, who was pushing me into it. Once you know, it's difficult to go back, but you need to learn it.

Musicians normally get into PRAT a lot easier, as playing together is all a but timing.

A pity you are not here in Germany. Should be fun to play you two setups from the same source with the same speakers and you can experience a total different presentation of the same music. You do not even need a double blind test for it :D:D:D (OK, bad yoke :rolleyes:)

ATB KH

Shame, long live UK hi-if, we appreciate the attention to detail!

I'm not suggesting timing isn't an important part of a system. But so is neutrality and dynamics and so on.

I am a musucian, albeit an ameture one! Including the drums. I monitor a lot on headphones straight out of pro audio equipment and that sets the bar for accurate timing for me. I appreciate my hi-fi to sound as similar to that as possible. Anything else is like an artefact, somewhere in the system.
 
I am a musucian, albeit an ameture one! Including the drums. I monitor a lot on headphones straight out of pro audio equipment and that sets the bar for accurate timing for me. I appreciate my hi-fi to sound as similar to that as possible. Anything else is like an artefact, somewhere in the system.

Great, so to understand good timing should be easy for you :)
 
Great, so to understand good timing should be easy for you :)

Hope so. Not sure understanding what it means was the problem :)

What's an example of an amp with highly neutral, dynamic sound and yet with 'timing'? rather than an impression of timing most likely due to colourations, indicated by suitability for some musical styles more than others.

(The prat acronym winds me up, 3 words, all for essentially the same thing. Good sign of marketing. Timing should cover it all, guess it just sounds less fancy)
 
Hope so. Not sure understanding what it means was the problem :)

What's an example of an amp with highly neutral, dynamic sound and yet with 'timing'? rather than an impression of timing most likely due to colour actions, indicated by suitability for some musical styles more than others.

(The prat acronym winds me up, 3 words, all for essentially the same thing. Good sign of marketing. Timing should cover it all, guess it just sounds less fancy)
Totally agree

Ask any musician what matters most when performing as a band, timing will be top of the list, all the band playing in time to move the tempo forward & to make the music make sense, that is timing, or as some call it "prat" When a band sounds "tight" this is due to great timing between the individual musicians.

If you have an amp that allows through what was intended by the musician, if the band or musician have great timing, it will come through, if you have an amp that adds it's own flavour to proceedings then it won't.

If you want to hear great timing visit an AC/DC concert, tight doesn't do it justice, more vice like grip, it forbids you from standing still.
 
interesting discussion.
PRAT = British marketing
There are good amps. There are not so good amps.
And other components in the system matter too as does yr mood, ambient temp etc

What is 'flat earth' ?
I have always wondered what the term "flat earth" means in hifi terms.

Flat earthers are usually regarding Naim users I believe.
 
I have always wondered what the term "flat earth" means in hifi terms.

Flat earthers are usually regarding Naim users I believe.

My understanding, probably wrong or incomplete, is that it is a term favoured by Linn / Naim users meaning source most important and users of any form of tone control should be banished to the seventh circle of hell (except cables, of course).
 
My understanding, probably wrong or incomplete, is that it is a term favoured by Linn / Naim users meaning source most important and users of any form of tone control should be banished to the seventh circle of hell (except cables, of course).
Does anyone use tone controls?

Remember needing them on my old pioneer back in the early 80's to make the sound even close to acceptable, since to come across an amp that needs them. If it does, surely somethings amiss with the musician or the system.

Seems i'm a fully fledged flat earther then.
 
I always thought flat earth was a derogatory term, hehe.

Tone controls, no - don't use them myself. If everything was well designed then you shouldn't need it.

Although the biggest factor is the listening room and room correction could be needed. However, of course you're unlikely to get the correct correction for that using simple tone controls!
 
The term "Flat Earth" in relation to audio was indeed meant in a derogatory sense. Fans of the audio new wave of the '70s (this new wave was led by I Tiefenbrun, J Vereker etc..) felt that objective measurements on their own couldn't tell you whether something would sound good or not, and that the only true "measure" for this was subjective; to listen for yourself. A number of those fans were influential journalists and so a sort of "movement" began. The term "Flat Earth" was coined because it was seen by some as similar to those who didn't trust what the scientists said, about the earth being round, that all they could "see" was that it was flat, hence "flat earth".

The term "Flat Earth" is a classic misnomer when applied to hifi reproduction in this way, mainly because unlike science which is able to show us that the world really is round, it still can't adequately explain why we hear what we hear. Objectivity can only go so far, the rest is all subjective.

Ironically, those who believe that all is objective in Hifi and that if what is heard can't be explained by science then it doesn't exist, may well be the real "Flat earthers" here...
 
A typical Japanese listening session would cover classical music, female voices and small Jazz trios. The focus is on tonal balance and imaging. Yes, a Japanese amp can time well, but that's more accident than design feature.

A UK design team would look for timing more than imaging and tonal accuracy. They would listen more to Rock or Pop, not to typical Audiophile music. Some of them would not even sit in the middle between the speakers, but only listen to the emotional part of the music. Yes, a typical British amp can do image and can be tonal correct, but it would be accident, not a design feature.

OK, I'm maybe painting it bold, but in reality, it's a bit like this.

Very interesting, although it does seem extremely broad.

Personally I look for an equal degree of tonal naturalism and dynamic naturalism. I don't think it is that commonly achieved. I heard it recently in a phono stage called the Firebottle; I found that this achieved tonal fidelity and rhythmic involvement somehow in the same moment, so that you are not separating the qualities analytically as a listener. That's the balance designers need to aim for, I think. Everything else, like 'walk in soundstage' and all that high end stuff, is luxury topping. It might even be a distraction if the tonal and dynamic naturalism hasn't been achieved. That's my aesthetic anyway; I just wish I could achieve it at home!
 
It's also worth pointing out that the upper tier of Japanese audiophiles tend to love vintage UK and US kit; Garrard, Tannoy, Leak, Western Electric, Altecs, JBLs, McIntosh, Fisher etc, i.e. idlers, tubes and big horns (plus lots of LS3/5A mini-monitors for something different!). This stuff is on the whole very dynamic, articulate and tonally believable.
 
Also Martin Colloms has it as PR and dynamics.

Interesting insights from KHF.

Do have a listen to an Audiolab 8000 and a NAIT over time in a familiar system and you will/should hear what is being talked about. Obviously with "approved" back and front ends.
 
I have never seen a coherent explanation of how an amplifier can mess up timing, in the way that speakers and turntables can
 
I have never seen a coherent explanation of how an amplifier can mess up timing, in the way that speakers and turntables can

Headroom, phase, slew rate, inapropriate damping factor for the connected speaker etc? I'm sure there are many ways to screw it up!
 
Headroom, phase, slew rate, inapropriate damping factor for the connected speaker etc? I'm sure there are many ways to screw it up!
Headroom - clipping sounds horrible, but most mainstream amplifiers go loud enough
Phase - unlikely to be an issue with a solid state amp
Slew rate - slew limiting is very measurable and fortunately rare
Damping factor - SETs and some other valve designs have high enough output resistance to mess up. Higher values in solid state designs like most Naim are not really high enough to affect damping, although they do modify the frequency response
 


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