Do Japanese amps do PRAT?

[Lee T]

What a stupid thing to say, at no point did anyone say that.

No, timing isn't a gimmick. The idea that certain amplifiers are required to preserve it certainly is. More importantly, speaker placement and the way they work in a room will be of hugely greater significance provided the amplifiers are not being used out of spec or are broken.

A poorly designed amp can destroy timing, this has been covered many times here by many members if you check.

Think of it like a guy taking a photo of a scene on his mobile compared to a professional photographer, he sees things in the scene the amatuer can't, lighting, focus etc etc..the amature is not up to the task. Same scene, different end.

 

[Joe Hutch]

A poorly designed amp can destroy timing, this has been covered many times here by many members if you check.

A lot of words have been written about the subject, certainly. I don't think anything's been proven either way.

 

[SteveS1]

A poorly designed amp can destroy timing, this has been covered many times here by many members if you check.

Think of it like a guy taking a photo of a scene on his mobile compared to a proffessional photographer, he sses things the amatuer can't, he is not up to the task.

The OP has shown no interest in 'a poorly designed amp' and I doubt he'll get many recommendations for one. So of all the things that could screw up timing in his listening room, it'll be pretty low on the list.

 

[Sibbers]

I don't really know what PRAT means in terms of amps (due to ignorance, rather than because I'm opposed to the idea) but my old amp attempting to drive my speakers used to make bass noise that was never there in the first place, and yet miss a bunch of other bass. Pretty sure this had an effect on the rest of the music, making it sound dark and lazy (and as a result could easily be described as poorly timed (?))

Is that PRAT? Also, I'd like to know what it is that makes PRAT such a difficult thing to believe could be an attribute of an amplifier, and then what it is that solves it? ie: power, current, damping factor or something else like signal purity? So far the flat earthers have proven themselves to be the ones to listen to based on my own experiences so far...

 

[Lee T]

A lot of words have been written about the subject, certainly. I don't think anything's been proven either way.

The only amp i have owned over the years that made the same peice of music sound like different material was a Marantz many years ago, it made the music sound slow, sluggish, it felt as though it needed a kick up the backside, this to me is poor timing, the band sounded half asleep compared to the same peice played on a Rotel amp i had at the same time, the music came to life, not by adding bass, top end etc, the sound was quite neutral but had some meaning to it that was lost with the Marantz.

Tempo was returned, the beat of the music was in balance with everything else rather than disjointed.

 

[Lee T]

I don't really know what PRAT means in terms of amps (due to ignorance, rather than because I'm opposed to the idea) but my old amp attempting to drive my speakers used to make bass noise that was never there in the first place, and yet miss a bunch of other bass. Pretty sure this had an effect on the rest of the music, making it sound dark and lazy (and as a result could easily be described as poorly timed (?))

Is that PRAT? Also, I'd like to know what it is that makes PRAT such a difficult thing to believe could be an attribute of an amplifier, and then what it is that solves it? ie: power, current, damping factor or something else like signal purity? So far the flat earthers have proven themselves to be the ones to listen to based on my own experiences so far...

Finally, a descrition of poor timing, pace & rhythm.

For anyone wanting to know what prat is, think the opposite of this descrition & all is clear, surely.

I refuse to believe people here have no idea what rhythm, pace & timing in music is if we all love listening to it. If your system didn't have it you would not be enjoying it, that's for sure, it would sound like the above description, lazy & boring.

 

[LouisB]

So you have never heard rhythm in music & need it explained to you?

You do know the meaning of rhythm i presume.

Google rhythm, this should explain things a little clearer for you.

yes, that's all in the (recording of the) music, not in the amplifier (which should be transparent at its very best)

 

[davidsrsb]

Think of it like a guy taking a photo of a scene on his mobile compared to a professional photographer, he sees things in the scene the amatuer can't, lighting, focus etc etc..the amature is not up to the task. Same scene, different end.

The audio analogy of this would be some very selective filtering to emphasise certain instruments

 

[DevillEars]

So you have never heard rhythm in music & need it explained to you?

You do know the meaning of rhythm i presume.

Google rhythm, this should explain things a little clearer for you.

That's precisely what I was expecting...

Please re-read my post: I asked for the meanings of "pace", "rhythm" and "timing" IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ACRONYM "PRAT".

Once you've re-read it and taken the trouble to understand it, consult a thesaurus on those three words and count the number of different definitions listed for each term...

That's one of the beauties of the English language - the multi-ordinal nature of words and how context can subtly alter meaning...

The only drawback being some challenges in semantics - hence the request in the post.

 

[Sibbers]

I think, perhaps, when the pacing (and timing) is a little bit ruined by the difficulty in driving other frequencies (like some mid-bass) which occur at the same time as a significant timed event (like the percussive stuff) then maybe you have an incapability (like maybe a low impedance swing) exposed by a certain type of music, that otherwise you'd never notice?

 

[mmaatt]

I think, perhaps, when the pacing (and timing) is a little bit ruined by the difficulty in driving other frequencies (like some mid-bass) which occur at the same time as a significant timed event (like the percussive stuff) then maybe you have an incapability (like maybe a low impedance swing) exposed by a certain type of music, that otherwise you'd never notice?

Christ what kind of oriental puppy of an amp are you listening to? - sounds like you need to hear a chrome bumper 250 real soon, I promise you rhythmic nirvana awaits.

mat

 

[Sibbers]

Christ what kind of oriental puppy of an amp are you listening to? - sounds like you need to hear a chrome bumper 250 real soon, I promise you rhythmic nirvana awaits.

mat

Haha That was a Cambridge Audio 840a... Things are much better now, but I heard many arguments that the amp was more than capable of driving my bookshelf speakers before finally getting a decent (couple of) amp(s) with PRAT coming out of everywhere! hehe

 

[mmaatt]

Haha That was a Cambridge Audio 840a... Things are much better now, but I heard many arguments that the amp was more than capable of driving my bookshelf speakers before finally getting a decent (couple of) amp(s) with PRAT coming out of everywhere! hehe

Oh yeah Cambridge, China.

Damn that's a new one for me - PRAT coming out of everywhere! like it!

mat

 

[Robert]

yes, that's all in the (recording of the) music, not in the amplifier (which should be transparent at its very best)

And of course the vast majority are.
A number of factors can change the way an amplifier might sound - clipping, slew rate, harmonic distortion, damping factor and phase shifts to name but a few.
However you have to look really hard to find any mainstream amplifier - from any country of origin - which has a problem in any of these areas on music signal.

So what of you show an amplifier slew limits at 20kHz at 100w into the load. Nobody encounters such issues because no music signals demand anything like this power at such frequencies, and no driver could handle it!

The same goes for harmonic distortion. Showing that amplifiers have different levels of distortion and spectra is all very well. Its audibility is another matter entirely.

The question here is around solid state Japanese amplifiers and the comparison with amplifiers which supposedly excel at PRaT, but there are no meaningful differences between them other than power output.

 

[Steven Toy]

I've heard a Baker Audio amp in my system and it certainly did PR&T rather well.

So there...!

 

[Patcam]

Finally, a descrition of poor timing, pace & rhythm.

For anyone wanting to know what prat is, think the opposite of this descrition & all is clear, surely.

I refuse to believe people here have no idea what rhythm, pace & timing in music is if we all love listening to it. If your system didn't have it you would not be enjoying it, that's for sure, it would sound like the above description, lazy & boring.

This. PRaT - the absence of smeared, congested, blurred, bloated - ie. any well designed amplifier performing as its maker intended.

 

[RustyB]

Agreed but it's pretty difficult to find amplifiers incapable of allowing it through.

Quite easy really; it's spelt Q U A D.

 

[RustyB]

You cannot design amplifiers to 'do PRaT'.

That's utter rubbish.

What do you think the engineers at Naim, Exposure and Densen do with their time?

There was an article published somewhere by Stan Curtis, in which he described how, when he was employed by Rotel to make their amps more competitive in the UK market, he could manipulate the parameters of the power supply components to give the amps greater punch in the bass, and hence improve the pace and rhythm.

That's just one example.

The above-mentioned manufacturers have an arsenal of tricks they've learned over the years and employ them to good effect.

 

[finkaudio]

You cannot design amplifiers to 'do PRaT'.

That's utter rubbish.

What do you think the engineers at Naim, Exposure and Densen do with their time?

There was an article published somewhere by Stan Curtis, in which he described how, when he was employed by Rotel to make their amps more competitive in the UK market, he could manipulate the parameters of the power supply components to give the amps greater punch in the bass, and hence improve the pace and rhythm.

That's just one example.

The above-mentioned manufacturers have an arsenal of tricks they've learned over the years and employ them to good effect.

You are absolutely right!. The problem is you are talking to members who maybe never really worked on an amplifier to voice it the way they want. They simply don't know what they don't know.

 

[SteveS1]

You are absolutely right!. The problem is you are talking to members who maybe never really worked on an amplifier to voice it the way they want. They simply don't know what they don't know.

Of course if a manufacturer deliberately introduced colouration or distortion then all bets are off, I doubt some of the makers mentioned here would do that.