Do Japanese amps do PRAT?
- Thread starter legolas
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flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
And this is why the JVC AX-Z1010TN does its job so well. Big, beefy PSU and star earthed, albeit not quite to the extremes of NAIM but when you look underneath most of the earths end up connected to the PSU caps.
russel
./_dazed_and_confused
If you have a life, then you shouldn't be in a hi-fi conference. I think Tony should add "having a life" as grounds for an immediate ban in the AUP.
BertieWorcester
What-ho!!
FireMoon
pfm Member
The "PRAT quota" really is a loads of old cobblers and as posted elsewhere is just a device for excusing the particular sound of certain mostly British, designs. That's from someone with a LP12, Hicap/32.5 and 110.
I spend endless hours mixing and recording stuff and on some days, everything seems to gel timing and tempo wise, other days it doesn't. Given that's listening to the same songs through the same gear it shows you how much of it is our own bias and perception and how much, at times, the weather and general ambience affects how we hear things.
Lin Kans on the end of a classic flat earth system, weren't flat earth, they were hair shirt or Opus Dei aural scarification. The only system I've ever heard that could make John Martyn sound like he drank helium instead of whiskey was a classic flat earth system. I exaggerate of course however, there is a truth there.
Equally, one can also make an opposing and totally justifiable claim that. Sticking the album "Solid Air" through a set up that has that "pillowy softness" so beloved of the valve fraternity does it no favours either. Given the desk and mics that were used it can be "too much of a good thing" and can rob the music of it's dynamism, in favour of an over genteel approach. Then again, I've heard Beard valve amps that could give any cheap Jap amp a run for its' money in the "clattery/shouty" stakes.
Good "Hifi" is good "Hifi" and contrary to many people's opinions tends to sound thoroughly decent in all bar, the most difficult of rooms. Our own moods are every bit as important as the gear we use past a certain level of competence. Some days we prefer to be tickled and cajoled other days, we prefer to be grabbed by the neck and taken by our musical experience. What everyone is really looking for, is kit that does both without detriment to either.
Take the doyen of studios for 3 decades now, the ubiquitous NS10s. They were originally designed to play music in tiny Japanese apartments and specifically developed to be used with the loudness button engaged on amps. It's amazing the difference in the old 10s when you listen to them in that manner.
To my old cloth ears, an old Marantz PM4 amp driving NS1000s, is far more preferable on just about every level than Naims driving Saras and that includes the mythical "PRAT quota"
I spend endless hours mixing and recording stuff and on some days, everything seems to gel timing and tempo wise, other days it doesn't. Given that's listening to the same songs through the same gear it shows you how much of it is our own bias and perception and how much, at times, the weather and general ambience affects how we hear things.
Lin Kans on the end of a classic flat earth system, weren't flat earth, they were hair shirt or Opus Dei aural scarification. The only system I've ever heard that could make John Martyn sound like he drank helium instead of whiskey was a classic flat earth system. I exaggerate of course however, there is a truth there.
Equally, one can also make an opposing and totally justifiable claim that. Sticking the album "Solid Air" through a set up that has that "pillowy softness" so beloved of the valve fraternity does it no favours either. Given the desk and mics that were used it can be "too much of a good thing" and can rob the music of it's dynamism, in favour of an over genteel approach. Then again, I've heard Beard valve amps that could give any cheap Jap amp a run for its' money in the "clattery/shouty" stakes.
Good "Hifi" is good "Hifi" and contrary to many people's opinions tends to sound thoroughly decent in all bar, the most difficult of rooms. Our own moods are every bit as important as the gear we use past a certain level of competence. Some days we prefer to be tickled and cajoled other days, we prefer to be grabbed by the neck and taken by our musical experience. What everyone is really looking for, is kit that does both without detriment to either.
Take the doyen of studios for 3 decades now, the ubiquitous NS10s. They were originally designed to play music in tiny Japanese apartments and specifically developed to be used with the loudness button engaged on amps. It's amazing the difference in the old 10s when you listen to them in that manner.
To my old cloth ears, an old Marantz PM4 amp driving NS1000s, is far more preferable on just about every level than Naims driving Saras and that includes the mythical "PRAT quota"
Robert
Tapehead
Superb post - this man knows his stuff.
finkaudio
pfm Member
I love the PM4
A great amp. Used one for long time, but it's a bit tired now and needs some work (switches).Best regards
KH
A lot of the PRAT stuff didn't come from Naim. Others were giving it that description. Naim CD players also swing but they have a flat response. I would like to know details of the distortion mentioned here. Frequency and level etc. get some numbers down to support the arguments.
Do Japanese amps time? I don't see why not but if Naims do because of problems let's see what they are.
Then we need to look at Densen. DNM and Spectral etc
Do Japanese amps time? I don't see why not but if Naims do because of problems let's see what they are.
Then we need to look at Densen. DNM and Spectral etc
MVV
pfm Member
So true Firemoon's bit about mood. I got back very tired from a stressful trip eager to hear Sandy Denny as the one bit of relief, during it, was reading her biography. I put her on late that night, sounded distorted, tried Emmylou, distorted, tried Mary Black, distorted, cleaned the stylus, distorted. Stormed about angrily, thinking someone had knocked the arm off the thing while I was away; thinking shit that's a grand down the tubes!
Had a good night's sleep and everything sounded fine the next day
Had a good night's sleep and everything sounded fine the next day
DevillEars
Dedicated ignorer of fashion
PRaT sounds suspiciously like "marketing-speak" from the 1980s and has gathered a following over the years based on an almost nationalistic view that British amplifiers are different to - and inherently better than - their Japanese counterparts.
Given that the term "PRaT" refers to "Pace", "Rhythm" and "Timing" and that I've yet to come across relevant and contextual definitions of these components, and each of these terms - like most words in the English language - are multi-ordinal based on usage/context, it is almost impossible to come up with a clear and concise semantic explanation of the term.
So, let's - for the moment - put aside the requirement for clarity and apply a nice warm and fuzzy explanation often used to exemplify "PRaT" - the ability to make the listener start to tap his/her feet in time to the music.
The next question needs to be "what aspects of an end-to-end music reproduction system" would contribute towards creating such an urge to "get involved with the music"?
Let's take the first phrase in quotes: simply put (using vinyl as an example)- all aspects (from performances, venue acoustics, mike positioning, recording electronics, mastering, pressing, transcription (TT, cart, arm, etc), signal paths, amplification, transduction (speakers), listening environment, listener health and mood.
If we accept this "holistic" construct for "PRaT", then one has to ask if any amplifier - by itself - can actually "have PRaT"... Personally? I don't believe it can.
I've long believed that no single component in the audio reproduction chain can "improve the sound". All one can look for are components that "do the least damage to the sound" and that all components, when "summed", produce a synergistic whole.
Coming back to the "comparisons are odious" aspect of British vs Japanese amps, I believe the country of origin is irrelevant - just the relative price points and the design priorities applied have any real impact.
How the manufacturing costs are allocated is key. Many early amps from Japan were focused on bells and whistles while Brit amps from that same era tended to be somewhat minimalist in terms of features with the bulk of the cost applied in those areas that influenced the sound quality. This difference didn't last that long once the Japanese electronics manufacturers realised what European/American buyers were looking for in their amp purchases. Many of these Japanese companies turned to using British designers and building amps in the Far East (Rotel comes to mind as an example).
Yes, there are still entry-level budget components emanating from the Pacific Rim which target the type of buyer that "values" bells and whistles, but people such as these do not frequent audiophiliac websites as they are quite content with their 10 gigawatt PMPO seismic performing tin cans. While this may be hyperbole, the point is cost cutting on sonically critical aspects like the power supply are common in any component labelled with "PMPO" (or similar abused term) and these components, where the cost focus points are vastly different, will sound different and - to most of us here - distinctly crappy...
If, however, one compares amps from British and Japanese manufacturers that both target the same markets, you'll find similar design philosophies, similar engineering standards, and similar voicing. This is perfectly understandable - they're both competing for the same wallets...
For my part, I look to a system of components (recordings / electronics / environment / mood) that is able to correctly reproduce transients (for both attack and decay), maintain phase linearity across the frequency spectrum, and - on a nice fuzzy note - produces an overall sonic picture that grabs and holds my attention without any conscious effort on my part (apart from selecting the program material).
PRaT? BS!
Given that the term "PRaT" refers to "Pace", "Rhythm" and "Timing" and that I've yet to come across relevant and contextual definitions of these components, and each of these terms - like most words in the English language - are multi-ordinal based on usage/context, it is almost impossible to come up with a clear and concise semantic explanation of the term.
So, let's - for the moment - put aside the requirement for clarity and apply a nice warm and fuzzy explanation often used to exemplify "PRaT" - the ability to make the listener start to tap his/her feet in time to the music.
The next question needs to be "what aspects of an end-to-end music reproduction system" would contribute towards creating such an urge to "get involved with the music"?
Let's take the first phrase in quotes: simply put (using vinyl as an example)- all aspects (from performances, venue acoustics, mike positioning, recording electronics, mastering, pressing, transcription (TT, cart, arm, etc), signal paths, amplification, transduction (speakers), listening environment, listener health and mood.
If we accept this "holistic" construct for "PRaT", then one has to ask if any amplifier - by itself - can actually "have PRaT"... Personally? I don't believe it can.
I've long believed that no single component in the audio reproduction chain can "improve the sound". All one can look for are components that "do the least damage to the sound" and that all components, when "summed", produce a synergistic whole.
Coming back to the "comparisons are odious" aspect of British vs Japanese amps, I believe the country of origin is irrelevant - just the relative price points and the design priorities applied have any real impact.
How the manufacturing costs are allocated is key. Many early amps from Japan were focused on bells and whistles while Brit amps from that same era tended to be somewhat minimalist in terms of features with the bulk of the cost applied in those areas that influenced the sound quality. This difference didn't last that long once the Japanese electronics manufacturers realised what European/American buyers were looking for in their amp purchases. Many of these Japanese companies turned to using British designers and building amps in the Far East (Rotel comes to mind as an example).
Yes, there are still entry-level budget components emanating from the Pacific Rim which target the type of buyer that "values" bells and whistles, but people such as these do not frequent audiophiliac websites as they are quite content with their 10 gigawatt PMPO seismic performing tin cans. While this may be hyperbole, the point is cost cutting on sonically critical aspects like the power supply are common in any component labelled with "PMPO" (or similar abused term) and these components, where the cost focus points are vastly different, will sound different and - to most of us here - distinctly crappy...
If, however, one compares amps from British and Japanese manufacturers that both target the same markets, you'll find similar design philosophies, similar engineering standards, and similar voicing. This is perfectly understandable - they're both competing for the same wallets...
For my part, I look to a system of components (recordings / electronics / environment / mood) that is able to correctly reproduce transients (for both attack and decay), maintain phase linearity across the frequency spectrum, and - on a nice fuzzy note - produces an overall sonic picture that grabs and holds my attention without any conscious effort on my part (apart from selecting the program material).
PRaT? BS!
John_73
pfm Member
^This! And I believe a large proportion of that is due to those tants in the signal path. I happen to own two Quad 34s; one is capped with Nichicon KZs in the signal path, the other with tants (both have a few coupling positions bypassed too). The Quad 34 with tants sounds surprisingly 'Naim-like'...
It isn't amps giving PRAT so much as letting through the fun that was in the recording. That's why the better power supplies etc help. Stopping and starting sounds properly helps too. That's one reason I replaced an LP12 with a Phonosophie. It's why speakers with low cabinet noise often sound good.
Lee T
pfm Member
The system will not produce prat, the musician will, but the system can hold this back if designed badly, music can sound slow, sluggish & bore the pants off you if the timing is missing, a good system allows the timing, if there in the first place, to shine through, Naim & rega amps are well known for this, amongst others, Exposure, as mention above,, some are not, Marantz spring to mind, yet to hear a Marantz amp that allows the band to sound as intended.
Hifiisms, (my made up word of the day) such as imaging, air, space etc are put on the backburner, instead, concentrating on the music as the musician intended, allowing the music to entertain as it should.
Going by your user name I imagine you already hear pace, rhythm & timing if you use vinyl on a regular basis.
MVV
pfm Member
Nothing does the snare drum like Naim. If you really want to appreciate Naim PRaT check out 'Simply Snare' Astor A-7262(A) This is an Australian double album featuring only snare drum workouts from a fantastic 17 minute multi snare workout from Ginger Baker to the wonderfully minimal '32' from Wire’s Robert Gotobed (32 seconds long )
)
RustyB
Registered Ginga
Just to be clear, it wasn't Naim who coined the term PRAT, it was reviewer Martin Colloms, who wrote a dissertation on the subject in Stereophile.
Naim have done very well, however, building a company whose products excelled in that area. So, clearly, many people appreciate and respond (with their credit cards) to product that works that way.
We need labels for observed phenomena, and that one's as good as any.
Why is it important? If the object of owning a hifi system is to enjoy your music, and gain greater insight into what the musicians are doing, as opposed to creating a cosmetically pretty aural picture, then aspects such as pace and timing are of vital importance to most music.
As MVV alludes above, the attack on a snare affects the impetus of a track.
Take a special band like Little Feat, masters of complex and quirky rhythms, played on a system that doesn't time well, and you've killed the essence of what they're about.
A system that lacks pace will reduce EDM to noise.
All of the above will be obvious to most people I would have thought, and anyone who's been around audio for a while will have experienced systems that vary widely in their general rhythmic ability.
So why the deniers?
I suggest a few categories:
* HLO's (hard line objectivists), generally tech heads who close their minds to anything that can't be measured.
* Non-rhythmic people: some people just don't have a rhythmic receptor; they're the ones whose feet don't move, even when the music's cooking.
* Those who've never heard a system with high PRAT factor, and therefore don't know what they're missing.
* People whose musical diet majors in slow-paced orchestral music.
Perhaps some of the posters above can add to those?
Naim have done very well, however, building a company whose products excelled in that area. So, clearly, many people appreciate and respond (with their credit cards) to product that works that way.
We need labels for observed phenomena, and that one's as good as any.
Why is it important? If the object of owning a hifi system is to enjoy your music, and gain greater insight into what the musicians are doing, as opposed to creating a cosmetically pretty aural picture, then aspects such as pace and timing are of vital importance to most music.
As MVV alludes above, the attack on a snare affects the impetus of a track.
Take a special band like Little Feat, masters of complex and quirky rhythms, played on a system that doesn't time well, and you've killed the essence of what they're about.
A system that lacks pace will reduce EDM to noise.
All of the above will be obvious to most people I would have thought, and anyone who's been around audio for a while will have experienced systems that vary widely in their general rhythmic ability.
So why the deniers?
I suggest a few categories:
* HLO's (hard line objectivists), generally tech heads who close their minds to anything that can't be measured.
* Non-rhythmic people: some people just don't have a rhythmic receptor; they're the ones whose feet don't move, even when the music's cooking.
* Those who've never heard a system with high PRAT factor, and therefore don't know what they're missing.
* People whose musical diet majors in slow-paced orchestral music.
Perhaps some of the posters above can add to those?
Lee T
pfm Member
Who doesn't enjoy pace, rhythm & timing with their music, hands up.
First I have heard of musical timing from a band as marketing hype, pace, rhythm, also marketing hype then according to some here, what nonsense. Try telling that to a jazz band.
If you believe timing is marketing hype it may be time to nip down to Tesco for your hifi needs.
Here's an example of pace, rhythm & timing from a modern band, their first outing, listen & learn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK7egZaT3hs
First I have heard of musical timing from a band as marketing hype, pace, rhythm, also marketing hype then according to some here, what nonsense. Try telling that to a jazz band.
If you believe timing is marketing hype it may be time to nip down to Tesco for your hifi needs.
Here's an example of pace, rhythm & timing from a modern band, their first outing, listen & learn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK7egZaT3hs
Robert
Tapehead
You cannot design amplifiers to 'do PRaT'.
You can manipulate the response or cause certain distortions to rise but the degree required in both cases is extremely rare in all but weird, expensive, non-hi-fi designs. Certainly no Naim or Linn amplifier has ever done this.
The PRaT 'effect' in Linn/Naim systems has come mainly from the loudspeakers which have some very distinct properties, helped in the days of old by a slightly colourful LP12 balance.
You can manipulate the response or cause certain distortions to rise but the degree required in both cases is extremely rare in all but weird, expensive, non-hi-fi designs. Certainly no Naim or Linn amplifier has ever done this.
The PRaT 'effect' in Linn/Naim systems has come mainly from the loudspeakers which have some very distinct properties, helped in the days of old by a slightly colourful LP12 balance.