Brexit: give me a positive effect... X

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

The EU used to be a good source for cheaper labour, but the rate expectations have been going up.

So why shouldn't people look elsewhere for cheaper options? We are frequently told that we are in a global marketplace, after all.

That's not a case of the EU failing, just that it changes into something which no longer provides the same thing.

It’s ironic, don’t you think, that one key pillar of the Leave campaign was better control of immigration. If EU immigrants price themselves out of the market, then you argue we look further afield, to a market we always had full control of anyway. Membership of the EU is a red herring here.

 

[kabayiri]

I accept the non-exclusive argument. I just didn't quite understand some of the logic behind EU philosophy.
Why would they simultaneously encourage FOM, and yet also pour money into the new entrant states like Poland?
Was it to encourage hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to-ing and fro-ing between states?

I suppose my point is moot though. The Leave campaign was centred on more mundane aspects to migration.

 

[notaclue]

On a scale of 1% to 99.5% to 100%, how dreadful a person is Mogg? https://twitter.com/TobyonTV/status/1349707738583093248

I like to look for the best in people so I rate him as 99.9% a dreadful person.

 

[lagavullin10y]

I accept the non-exclusive argument. I just didn't quite understand some of the logic behind EU philosophy.
Why would they simultaneously encourage FOM, and yet also pour money into the new entrant states like Poland?
Was it to encourage hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to-ing and fro-ing between states?

Could well be. No more war in Europe is one of the original intentions of the EU and people traveling around getting to understand each other is an important way.

Investing in countries like Poland means that they over time get more in the west-European ecosphere than the Russian. I'd prefer to have a strong country between me and Russia ...

Reading your posts, kabayiri, I get that you saw the EU purely as a economic platform but it is simply much more than that to many like me.

Being Eurosceptic-but-in-the-end-pro-EU, I feel betrayed by the UK.

 

[kabayiri]

...
Reading your posts, kabayiri, I get that you saw the EU purely as a economic platform but it is simply much more than that to many like me.
...

I'm just wary of political entities. That's what I see as the EU. It's the political entity at the core.
I view our lot in Westminster with a degree of cynicism too.

I guess it's why I prefer looser structures with less power given to people who generally find ways of abusing that power.

I do remember back in 2010/2011, one David Cameron trying to limit the EU budget. It's evidence I think that we were never a committed member really.

 

[Colin Barron]

Yeabbut worrabout my winnings?

Over the past 5 years i have been highlighting the good bookies odds on various pfm remainer positions on events.

 

[PsB]

I accept the non-exclusive argument. I just didn't quite understand some of the logic behind EU philosophy.
Why would they simultaneously encourage FOM, and yet also pour money into the new entrant states like Poland?
Was it to encourage hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to-ing and fro-ing between states?

No, it's not something designed to support airlines, it's designed to ease accession to the EU.

When a country like Poland wants to join the EU, the gap in wealth, earnings and competitiveness is huge, enough to deter accession. The competitive shock to the weaker economy from suddenly being exposed to the Single Market is tremendous, with many businesses likely to go under or be acquired by larger groups. So there are offsets: citizens of the accession country enjoy FoM to live and work within the whole EU, so they can find employment on better terms than at home. To prevent a mass exodus immediately after accession, there are temporary restrictions on FoM to give local businesses some time to gear up to the challenge, and prevent neighbouring countries (as an example in this case, Germany) being swamped by a wave of expats (these measures were implemented by most EU countries when Poland joined, but Tony Blair knew better, Global Britain etc. and threw the door open). And there are structural funds to boost infrastructure (which benefits the whole EU) and support investment in local companies and communities. The money helps to boost the local economy, creates jobs, etc. to accelerate convergence with older member states.

This logic explains why the Single Market and FoM come as a package that the EU is loath to unbundle, despite Brexiter wishes to pick and choose the bits they want.

 

[stephen bennett]

Could well be. No more war in Europe is one of the original intentions of the EU and people traveling around getting to understand each other is an important way.

Investing in countries like Poland means that they over time get more in the west-European ecosphere than the Russian. I'd prefer to have a strong country between me and Russia ...

Reading your posts, kabayiri, I get that you saw the EU purely as a economic platform but it is simply much more than that to many like me.

Being Eurosceptic-but-in-the-end-pro-EU, I feel betrayed by the UK.

If we'd invited Russia to apply to join the EU after the fall of the Soviet Union, rather than going 'we won war, la la la la la la' and allowing (and encouraging) the rise of autocracy and oligarchy, we'd have fewer problems in the world than we have now.

Stephen

 

[TheDecameron]

On a scale of 1% to 99.5% to 100%, how dreadful a person is Mogg? https://twitter.com/TobyonTV/status/1349707738583093248

I like to look for the best in people so I rate him as 99.9% a dreadful person.

What a ***t! People are going to lose their livelihoods over it. Johnson this morning promised financial support then did a U-turn within hours. The Tories are driving another nail into their lousy political coffin every day in Scotland.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Let them eat hake

 

[stephen bennett]

.

This logic explains why the Single Market and FoM come as a package that the EU is loath to unbundle, despite Brexiter wishes to pick and choose the bits they want.

Here's A Leaked WhatsApp Chat Showing Tory Leavers' Confusion About One Of Their Key Brexit Demands

It’s shocking that the minister in charge of Brexit doesn’t understand something so basic in his brief, but it’s not surprising

And going off MPs' response to the WA and Trade deal, they still don't understand what they are signing.

I suspect the EU do.

Surely, the least we can demand from our MPs that they at least understand the effect that any legislation they pass will have on the people of the UK.

Half a day for the most important bill this century and then it's waved through by both main parties.

Pathetic.

Stephen

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Surely, the least we can demand from our MPs that the understand the effect that any legislation they pass will have on the people of the UK.

Half a day for the most important bill this century and then it's waved through by both main parties.

Pathetic.

Stephen

The entire premise underpinning the system of representative democracy is that we delegate the authority to make big decisions to those we consider best placed to do so. A prerequisite is that they have the time and expertise to inform their decision making. They have done neither, on arguably the most important decision ever to come before them. It’s shameful.

 

[TheDecameron]

Here's A Leaked WhatsApp Chat Showing Tory Leavers' Confusion About One Of Their Key Brexit Demands

It’s shocking that the minister in charge of Brexit doesn’t understand something so basic in his brief, but it’s not surprising

And going off MPs' response to the WA and Trade deal, they still don't understand what they are signing.

I suspect the EU do.

Surely, the least we can demand from our MPs that the understand the effect that any legislation they pass will have on the people of the UK.

Half a day for the most important bill this century and then it's waved through by both main parties.

Pathetic.

Stephen

Ah, Nadeeeen. Not only a treacherous back stabber but as thick as two short planks. Perfect Tory ministerial material.

 

[wacko]

^ no need to read all that boring stuff if the aim is just to win elections. Tory Party stopped caring about the UK years ago.

 

[stevec67]

Why would they simultaneously encourage FOM, and yet also pour money into the new entrant states like Poland?
Was it to encourage hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to-ing and fro-ing between states?
.

It's called levelling up. Nobody wants to see a Poland brain-drain. They want FoM, of course, but they don't want Poland empty and nobody to mend the roads. So you do both.
Someone should explain to Boris what levelling-up means. The probelm is that Boris and his pals don't know where Barnsley and Bolton are on a map, much less know what they look like, so making them reasonably prosperous is about as likely as London falling into the sea next week. It is of course possible, but there is millions of pounds invested to make sure it doesn't happen.

 

[Colin L]

Colin I lose track of your distractions, the common theme is to look anywhere bar at what you are actually doing. Oh and the constant forlorn hope of worse failure for others, of course.

..and the xenophobia. Don't forget the xenophobia.

 

[eternumviti]

That’s been a running theme of yours- to conveniently put on naive ignorance only to contradict yourself later on.

Really? Examples...

She said it, and sage Brexiters on here nodded in agreement. I can't be bothered to trawl through the pfm archive, but it was after her daft red lines (and before she lost the GE), when it was pointed out some sort of border would have to run either through Ireland or through the Irish Sea. Brexiters at that time were counting either on magic technology or on the EU folding.

ISTR blockchain, the panacea of the technically illiterate, was mentioned quite a lot.

I saw it coming from some 'technically literates'. I have no reason to assume they were less so than you.

What has been quite an education since December 31st is the degree to which the EU refuses to acknowledge technical border solutions at all, to the point of insisting upon signed pieces of paper, probably sent by 2nd class post, in regard of moving goods across the EU borders. I concede that I really hadn't acknowledged the degree to which they actually repel technological solutions, as that would make the process too easy, and easy is not what the EU wants it to be. It matters not a hoot that customs declarations can be efficiently processed electronically if numerous paper-based documents still have to be submitted.

I believe that the country which is most rapidly advancing a fully integrated and seamless customs clearance procedure (known as uCustoms) is Malaysia. Where there's a will etc...

They still are.

Correct.

Indeed, at the time EV had indulged in some extensive tech-Googling or more likely Daniel Hannan’s blog and was waxing lyrical about blockchain and other goodies. The invisible border that no one would notice was there.

All things are possible. Perhaps you should start focussing your extensive intellect on it, given that your ambition is to place one of those fabulous old-tech EU borders between your economy and 60% of its customers by value.

Takes a righty to know a righty, eh?

EV:

Excellent. One more brain cell and someone around here will qualify as a fully-fledged amoeba. We're not there yet though.

and how does that relate to Brexit?

Went through this the other day. The EMA spent a good fortnight or more box-ticking, whilst the EC procrastinated about how to roll out the vaccines 'fairly'. The UK, thankfully, got on with it.

A bit early in the piece to be crowing too, because despite the advantages of earlier supplies, smaller territory and denser population - I wouldn't put it past Johnson's clowns to fvck it up. Certainly the lengthening times between jabs is beginning to look iffy.

Exactly as I wrote on the last incarnation of this thread...

Well, I would have liked to have said 'too early to tell', but the fact that the UK put the green light on the covid jabs weeks before the dithering EU did is a definitive positive and potentially long term one. Let's hope we can keep the pace up.

...so crowing only cautiously.

 

[Colin Barron]

Colin I lose track of your distractions, the common theme is to look anywhere bar at what you are actually doing. Oh and the constant forlorn hope of worse failure for others, of course.

Now that you mention it i still don't see any evidence of the majority of the EU taking any notice of the frugals who feed the money tree. I suppose now that the net contributors have seen the benefits of being in the EU they may be quiet for a while.

 

[SteveS1]

Now that you mention it i still don't see any evidence of the majority of the EU taking any notice of the frugals who feed the money tree. I suppose now that the net contributors have seen the benefits of being in the EU they may be quiet for a while.

Your common theme is to look anywhere bar at what you are actually doing. Oh and the constant forlorn hope of bigger failure for others, of course.

I'm struggling to hear you over the radio, where there is a Scottish chap threatening to dump a load of rotting fish in Westminster. Seems he thinks he's been had. Won't be long before more people catch on.

 

[stevec67]

Your common theme is to look anywhere bar at what you are actually doing. Oh and the constant forlorn hope of bigger failure for others, of course.

I'm struggling to hear you over the radio, where there is a Scottish chap threatening to dump a load of rotting fish in Westminster. Seems he thinks he's been had. Won't be long before more people catch on.

Taken a while for him to work it out, hasn't it? He's about 4- 5 years behind the rest of us. If others are as slow on the uptake then JRM 's 50 years comment might not be far from the truth.