Advertisement



  1. Things you need to know about the new ‘Conversations’ PM system:

    a) DO NOT REPLY TO THE NOTIFICATION EMAIL! I get them, not the intended recipient. I get a lot of them and I do not want them! It is just a notification, log into the site and reply from there.

    b) To delete old conversations use the ‘Leave conversation’ option. This is just delete by another name.
    Dismiss Notice

Brexit: give me a positive effect... X

Discussion in 'off topic' started by kabayiri, Jan 13, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    I don't see much difference in democratic eqivalence between running on completing an advisory implementation of a manifesto pledge, and a manifesto pledge to reverse another parties manifesto pledge.
    So less of the anti democratic crap, the anti democratic act was using an advisory referendum to sidestep democratic safeguards.
     
  2. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    Yeabbut worrabout my winnings?
     
  3. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    I don’t think the Corbyn shadow Cabinet were bad people, it’s just that they made some very bad decisions and Brexit finished them. I mean, who would have imagined seats held by Labour continuously for virtually a century being turned over by their voters to an out of control, far right Tory government? Something went very badly wrong.
     
    kendo and ff1d1l like this.
  4. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    There were even people who actually defended the floundering Corbyn position! A “leader” who managed to haemorrhage votes simultaneously to Tory, Farage’s Brexit Party, SNP, Green and Lib Dem! It really takes a special kind of loser to be so fundamentally incoherent and ideologically oblique in position that votes leave both to the far-right and left! Even Jo Swinson, a terrible Lib Dem leader IMHO, took many votes and some seats from Labour! By saying that Corbyn also managed to lead his party to defeat against the woefully inarticulate and morally compromised Theresa May, the architect of Windrush and a woman who makes a Texas Instruments Speak & Spell sound like the very model of human compassion.
     
  5. Colin Barron

    Colin Barron pfm Member

    That is the real world Steve, Brexit will be a footnote in history. Did i mention about driverless cars in 20 years and with it unemployment, well(page 21 Times) the Department of transport report quotes 72% of cars driverless within 15 years. A changing world and the British Leyland union attitude that prevails on the bridge of the federal USE Titanic is what will send this project into the depths.
     
  6. SteveS1

    SteveS1 I heard that, pardon?

    Colin I lose track of your distractions, the common theme is to look anywhere bar at what you are actually doing. Oh and the constant forlorn hope of worse failure for others, of course.
     
  7. Colin Barron

    Colin Barron pfm Member

    A policy that turned out to be a masterstroke of good luck for the Tory party. I don't recall Labour distancing themselves from this view so maybe it did not help their figures either.
    Here again is the monumental blunder: (1 minute in)
     
  8. Colin Barron

    Colin Barron pfm Member

    It is my reasoning why leaving was worthwhile and as with Scottish independence it was a once in a generation opportunity.
     
  9. kabayiri

    kabayiri pfm Member

    Do you give any credence to the notion that a smaller nation state can be more nimble than a larger union?

    Whilst not convinced on the Scottish independence idea, this is one area where I can see how a smaller entity can change it's policy quicker to match rapidly changing world dynamics.

    The EU is still quite a disparate set of entities.
     
  10. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    It’s the funnies- the inept metaphors. The EU is now British Leyland/ The Titanic. That’s a projection in its simplest form. How about “the Johnson ship of fools EU” or “Gove at the controls of the Boaty McBoatface EU”?
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
    SteveS1 and ff1d1l like this.
  11. SteveS1

    SteveS1 I heard that, pardon?

    What do you mean nimbler? Less regulated, lower standards, poorer protection, reduced rights, more malleable population with fewer choices?

    Do you give any credence to economy of scale, bulk purchasing power, fewer trade barriers, pooled resource, shared facilities and services?
     
  12. kabayiri

    kabayiri pfm Member

    Nimbler means more able to respond to change quickly.

    The things you mention could occur in a large entity too.
     
  13. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    That's all true but I think it subtly shifts the goalposts. The claim is that some remainers (the hardest of the hard) never accepted the referendum result and tried to overturn it in a way that was essentially anti-democratic. The fact that many individuals voted for a party (the LDs) that promised to do just that proves the point conclusively, in my view.

    Flip it. Suppose Remain won in 2016 and then a resurgent Brexit Party promised to leave anyway and won the 2019 election on that basis. At a global level that's a democratic outcome (just as it would have been had the LDs been victorious in 2019). However, it's quite obvious in that scenario that the Brexit voters of 2019 do not accept the result of the democratic referendum in 2016.

    Arguing for a second referendum to confirm the actual deal was a principled position although, with the benefit of hindsight, I think it was the wrong one; but that's quite different to the Lib-Dem position.
     
  14. stephen bennett

    stephen bennett Mr Enigma

    That option has been removed from us by the leave voters—apart from those who can continue afford to live anywhere.

    Stephen
     
  15. SteveS1

    SteveS1 I heard that, pardon?

    The term in this thread doesn't apply, it's used purely as a pejorative deflection. It doesn't shift the goalposts it's a straw man in the context of this thread unless someone can point to where a contributor advocated just ignoring the referendum result. Still waiting on that.

    Like insisting that 52-48 Remain would be "unfinished business" you mean? Remind me, who was that on the very evening of the ballot. UKIP/BP should have stood for election on this issue instead of a referendum, we all know why they didn't.

    It is, but it was my position and plenty of others on here. You seem to be equating it with the Lib Dem manifesto which I,and as far as I can see, most others here thought was a disasterous tactic.
     
    roman likes this.
  16. SteveS1

    SteveS1 I heard that, pardon?

    Too much of your slip has shown this week in terms of your Brexit motivation. The same arguments apply in both situations. Isolation is a backward step with almost totally negative consequences.
     
  17. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    That is exactly what the Brexit Party would have tried to do, and that's entirely democratic. The Labour Party has had policies that nobody wants to vote for for over a decade now. They still have a right to have it in their manifesto. If the Cons had carried on following a 48/52 remain vote and gone into the next election saying "we're leaving, it's in the manifesto" (or indeed an elected Brexit Party as you suggest) that would have been entirely democratic also. There's nothing forcing any party to put something in their manifesto because it's what people want. There has been a majority in favour of capital punishment for decades in the UK. It is declining now but for years it was a well known "will of the people" that no mainstream party wanted to adopt.

    Political views shift. It was "the will of the people" to elect Labour in 1997. That "will of the people" changed over the subsequent years. One day it may shift back. When we get to the next GE, if there is a change of government will we be saying "but the will of the people is to elect Conservatives!"? Obviously not. The views of the people have changed.
    .
     
  18. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    We all know that Colin's view on Europe is that it's going to fail so we are better to jump now. This is a bit like me being on board a plane and jumping out now because I think it's going down sooner or later.
     
    stephen bennett and Colin Barron like this.
  19. kabayiri

    kabayiri pfm Member

    The EU used to be a good source for cheaper labour, but the rate expectations have been going up.

    So why shouldn't people look elsewhere for cheaper options? We are frequently told that we are in a global marketplace, after all.

    That's not a case of the EU failing, just that it changes into something which no longer provides the same thing.
     
  20. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    We already did, pre and post Brexit. We had extra-EU immigration too, half the hospitals run on that. Nobody stopped us.
     
    stephen bennett and roman like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page





Advertisement


  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice