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Brexit: give me a positive effect... X

Discussion in 'off topic' started by kabayiri, Jan 13, 2021.

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  1. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    What he said, not you...on the button.
    You ignore the trashing of democracy and political morality while attempting pathetically the most hamfisted attempts at misdirection...
    We need our Biden.
     
  2. eternumviti

    eternumviti Bloviating Brexiter

    Mmm. Needless to say, you and I probably have different opinions on what constitutes the trashing of democracy and political morality.

    Not probably, certainly.
     
  3. SteveS1

    SteveS1 I heard that, pardon?

    It's not as if you would vote against it.
     
  4. Nick_G

    Nick_G pfm Member

    And yet, as Dec has pointed out, after all these things that they have done without consequence, the Tories are still in power with a large thumbs-up from the electorate. So your argument rings somewhat hollow.
     
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr likes this.
  5. lordsummit

    lordsummit Moderator

    Oh many of us have touched on the immigration issue, I will however continue to say that Brexit is essentially a racist endeavour, and whether it’s dressed up in fancy words, or UKIP party slogans, at it’s heart it’s ‘I’m not having bloody foreigners in charge of me.' Now for all the millions of words you’ve churned out on the subject you’ve failed to produce one benefit that can be quantified. You fall back constantly on alleged criminality, or a democratic deficit. Well if criminality has been proven, and investigated that’s a damn sigh better than is happening here, where the incumbents in power are grifting away to the benefit of their mates. Well shock horror I believe the EU elections to be more democratic than ours, the party I voted for got representation in line with its vote share. They then went to the parliament and in line with their allies in the parliament elected officials to carry out the work of the parliament.

    You also seem incredibly oblivious of the hypocrisy of accusing TDC of outright nationalism for wishing for a separate Scotland and wanting that nation to rejoin the EU. This is whilst supporting what is blatantly a foolish expression of English nationalism. Scotland would appear to have a desire for a parting of the ways with the union, and who can blame them? Democratically they have elected representatives in favour of this. Where is the democratic deficit here? Or is this just inconvenient for you? If I was in Scotland I’d vote SNP as well in the hope of avoiding sinking like the rusty old ship England.

    You also frequently along with your brexity mates inform us how the whole EU edifice will come crashing down. In fact often you seemed to hope that Brexit would lead to this. Yet you and the others in favour are quick to criticise any of us who say well, we told you Brexit would make bad stuff happen, or say, well they voted for it, let them enjoy it.

    As it happens I was gutted we lost, but I said a long time ago that I’d accept a sensible exit. One with a Customs Union, one where movement was possible for those who needed to. I’d prefer freedom of movement per-se, but hey-ho...

    So yes, enjoy your Brexit. Enjoy the financial losses, enjoy the loss of freedoms, enjoy the cultural paucity that’s going to ensue. Enjoy the diminishment of England. I have every hope the Celtic nations will flourish, although the pathway for Wales looks challenging.
     
    Covkxw, farfromthesun, Rob998 and 8 others like this.
  6. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr Well, I can dream, can’t I?

    If we genuinely had the power to sack our political masters at the ballot box, we would surely have sacked Thatcher’s Tories in the 1980s, or the Cameron austerity government in 2015 as neither was delivering anything like what the average man in the street wanted or needed. We didn’t, because the system is stacked in favour of the right wing, and the people are gulled into believing their interests coincide with ours.

    The idea that we have power via the ballot box is a thinly veneered fiction which is wearing thinner. Problem is, there’s bugger all we can do about it even then.
     
  7. lordsummit

    lordsummit Moderator

    I’m certain the grifters in charge will also manipulate the electoral boundaries in their favour. The chances of sacking them at the ballot box are slim indeed.
     
  8. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr Well, I can dream, can’t I?

    I might support a move to a union of Celtic nations, outside of England. There’s a small geographical problem in that Wales isn’t physically adjoined to Scotland. I propose this is remedied by moving the Scottish border south to Cheshire, so there’s a contiguous Celtic union.
     
  9. lordsummit

    lordsummit Moderator

    Maybe Manchester and Birmingham could be amalgamated into Scotland, then a causeway built up along the M6 corridor. If Liverpool wanted in we could include the M62 corridor and build a bridge to Wales?
     
  10. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    I've done more than come close to acknowledging it, I've spelt it out explicitly. A few times, based on what I have experienced at first hand.
    As ever, it's not that simple. The immigrants were scapegoated to disguise underinvestment. It did anything but bite the sitting politicos on the arse, dyed in the wool rural communities have never voted anything other than Conservative were told "it's the immigrants" to cover every one of their MPs shortcomings and they believed the easy cop out voted conservative again because "he'll do something about it" .

    Of course the scapegoating wasn't reserved to places with lots of immigrants, it was rolled out in places like Grimsby and Barnsley where there are few but the place is dirt poor because of where it is. Blaming the immigrants, however few they are, is easy for everyone concerned.
     
  11. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    Do we get to talk about the increased cost and the negative impact on the planet of moving trade from next door to far away?
     
  12. eternumviti

    eternumviti Bloviating Brexiter

    Yes, you have. I didn't want to rock the boat.

    Yes, I agree with the first two sentences (and have said it several times), and acknowledge the rest.
     
    stevec67 likes this.
  13. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    What about all that scaremongering turned reality like eroding workers' rights or a move to a US-style light-fingered state serving business interests over those of the people and privatising as much of the public services as possible?
     
  14. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    Right-wing propaganda (lies) has changed the UK in recent times.
     
    tonerei likes this.
  15. kabayiri

    kabayiri pfm Member

    Of course we can.

    But it does sound a bit hollow, when vast chunks of the goods bought by ordinary people in the West are built in S.E Asia.
    I'd love to see people buy more local stuff. But it's probably a minority viewpoint, and we must be realistic.
     
  16. kabayiri

    kabayiri pfm Member

    It's big corporates which will erode rights. We could be on the edge of the next massive wave of technology replacing jobs in the decade to come.
    Do you really think the likes of Amazon will employ people just to be nice?
     
  17. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    I was thinking about necessary goods, like food. Also parts for the industry, both supply and demand. Am I being unrealistic?
     
  18. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    And you think that little UK ruled by a nationalist, isolationist, right-wing, pro-Trump government is interested in defending the people?
     
  19. kabayiri

    kabayiri pfm Member

    Don't you think the people in places like Grimsby and Barsnley were a little bit sick of being told how fabulous the EU was, when after 4 decades of membership, they still find themselves in some of the poorest parts?

    Someone comes along in a referendum, and promises them change and new opportunity. They are going to grab it. That sounds like the standard mode of politicians to me.
     
  20. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    More importantly, according to the ONS "Since 2009 the value of exports to non-EU countries is greater than that to EU countries". Does this perhaps mean that being a member wasn't stopping us from trading outside of the block? (and are you expecting small UK to make more beneficial trade deals with third party countries than heavy-weight EU?)
     
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