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Brexit: give me a positive effect... X

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Mmm. Needless to say, you and I probably have different opinions on what constitutes the trashing of democracy and political morality.

Not probably, certainly.
 
eternumviti said:
Lordsummit, I find your snipe pretty offensive. It has nothing whatsoever to do with foreigners. My mistrust (sneery is standard posture for the pfm remainer, just glance upthread) is reserved for anyone who has the keys to excessive power without the possibility of democratic sanction. The EU generally and the EC/ECJ in particular have been helping themselves to excessive power for 3 decades, and there is no democratic sanction whatsoever, because they are not elected.

The manifold shortcomings of the current government here will be subject to the ballot box, and if they are found to have been wanting or indeed bent, they'll be sacked and parked in front of the courts, in that order. And on current form, they're cerainly lined up for the former.

What we desperately lack at the moment is an opposition to the government to make sure they are. It isn't the job of the bloody EU to provide that, and never has been.
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TheDecameron said:
I’m calling BS. Because- Cummings/ untendered billions handed out to party donors/ shutting down parliament/ threatening the judiciary/ suppressing the report into Russian interference/ putting Russians into the HoL and being literally asleep on the job.
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And yet, as Dec has pointed out, after all these things that they have done without consequence, the Tories are still in power with a large thumbs-up from the electorate. So your argument rings somewhat hollow.
 
Oh many of us have touched on the immigration issue, I will however continue to say that Brexit is essentially a racist endeavour, and whether it’s dressed up in fancy words, or UKIP party slogans, at it’s heart it’s ‘I’m not having bloody foreigners in charge of me.' Now for all the millions of words you’ve churned out on the subject you’ve failed to produce one benefit that can be quantified. You fall back constantly on alleged criminality, or a democratic deficit. Well if criminality has been proven, and investigated that’s a damn sigh better than is happening here, where the incumbents in power are grifting away to the benefit of their mates. Well shock horror I believe the EU elections to be more democratic than ours, the party I voted for got representation in line with its vote share. They then went to the parliament and in line with their allies in the parliament elected officials to carry out the work of the parliament.

You also seem incredibly oblivious of the hypocrisy of accusing TDC of outright nationalism for wishing for a separate Scotland and wanting that nation to rejoin the EU. This is whilst supporting what is blatantly a foolish expression of English nationalism. Scotland would appear to have a desire for a parting of the ways with the union, and who can blame them? Democratically they have elected representatives in favour of this. Where is the democratic deficit here? Or is this just inconvenient for you? If I was in Scotland I’d vote SNP as well in the hope of avoiding sinking like the rusty old ship England.

You also frequently along with your brexity mates inform us how the whole EU edifice will come crashing down. In fact often you seemed to hope that Brexit would lead to this. Yet you and the others in favour are quick to criticise any of us who say well, we told you Brexit would make bad stuff happen, or say, well they voted for it, let them enjoy it.

As it happens I was gutted we lost, but I said a long time ago that I’d accept a sensible exit. One with a Customs Union, one where movement was possible for those who needed to. I’d prefer freedom of movement per-se, but hey-ho...

So yes, enjoy your Brexit. Enjoy the financial losses, enjoy the loss of freedoms, enjoy the cultural paucity that’s going to ensue. Enjoy the diminishment of England. I have every hope the Celtic nations will flourish, although the pathway for Wales looks challenging.
 
If we genuinely had the power to sack our political masters at the ballot box, we would surely have sacked Thatcher’s Tories in the 1980s, or the Cameron austerity government in 2015 as neither was delivering anything like what the average man in the street wanted or needed. We didn’t, because the system is stacked in favour of the right wing, and the people are gulled into believing their interests coincide with ours.

The idea that we have power via the ballot box is a thinly veneered fiction which is wearing thinner. Problem is, there’s bugger all we can do about it even then.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
If we genuinely had the power to sack our political masters at the ballot box, we would surely have sacked Thatcher’s Tories in the 1980s, or the Cameron austerity government in 2015 as neither was delivering anything like what the average man in the street wanted or needed. We didn’t, because the system is stacked in favour of the right wing, and the people are gulled into believing their interests coincide with ours.

The idea that we have power via the ballot box is a thinly veneered fiction which is wearing thin. Problem is, there’s bigger all we can do about it even then.
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I’m certain the grifters in charge will also manipulate the electoral boundaries in their favour. The chances of sacking them at the ballot box are slim indeed.
 
I might support a move to a union of Celtic nations, outside of England. There’s a small geographical problem in that Wales isn’t physically adjoined to Scotland. I propose this is remedied by moving the Scottish border south to Cheshire, so there’s a contiguous Celtic union.
 
Maybe Manchester and Birmingham could be amalgamated into Scotland, then a causeway built up along the M6 corridor. If Liverpool wanted in we could include the M62 corridor and build a bridge to Wales?
 
eternumviti said:
Steve, I'm not going to be drawn into the immigration bit of this argument, but I should point out that you are the only person here who has come close to acknowledging the issues of people who were directly affected in their communities by the very rapid increase in EU immigration which commenced under Blair.
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I've done more than come close to acknowledging it, I've spelt it out explicitly. A few times, based on what I have experienced at first hand.
If rapid immigration was an issue for these people, then it was a legitimate one, and they should have been heard by their political representatives. If the politicos didn't want to listen, then it was bound to come back and bite them on the arse sooner or later. If that sense of disenfranchisement crystallised in Brexit, they have only themselves to blame.
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As ever, it's not that simple. The immigrants were scapegoated to disguise underinvestment. It did anything but bite the sitting politicos on the arse, dyed in the wool rural communities have never voted anything other than Conservative were told "it's the immigrants" to cover every one of their MPs shortcomings and they believed the easy cop out voted conservative again because "he'll do something about it" .

Of course the scapegoating wasn't reserved to places with lots of immigrants, it was rolled out in places like Grimsby and Barnsley where there are few but the place is dirt poor because of where it is. Blaming the immigrants, however few they are, is easy for everyone concerned.
 
kabayiri said:
Sorry, I was unclear.

There has to be some talk now, about how we build a plan to replace what we lose from being outside the EU.
That's just my view, but you may believe that the plan has to be to return back to what we had with the EU.

I can understand the logic, but is that your view?
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Do we get to talk about the increased cost and the negative impact on the planet of moving trade from next door to far away?
 
stevec67 said:
I've done more than come close to acknowledging it, I've spelt it out explicitly. A few times, based on what I have experienced at first hand.
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Yes, you have. I didn't want to rock the boat.

stevec67 said:
As ever, it's not that simple. The immigrants were scapegoated to disguise underinvestment. It did anything but bite the sitting politicos on the arse, dyed in the wool rural communities have never voted anything other than Conservative were told "it's the immigrants" to cover every one of their MPs shortcomings and they believed the easy cop out voted conservative again because "he'll do something about it" .

Of course the scapegoating wasn't reserved to places with lots of immigrants, it was rolled out in places like Grimsby and Barnsley where there are few but the place is dirt poor because of where it is. Blaming the immigrants, however few they are, is easy for everyone concerned.
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Yes, I agree with the first two sentences (and have said it several times), and acknowledge the rest.
 
kabayiri said:
Sorry, I was unclear.

There has to be some talk now, about how we build a plan to replace what we lose from being outside the EU.
That's just my view, but you may believe that the plan has to be to return back to what we had with the EU.

I can understand the logic, but is that your view?
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What about all that scaremongering turned reality like eroding workers' rights or a move to a US-style light-fingered state serving business interests over those of the people and privatising as much of the public services as possible?
 
tuga said:
Do we get to talk about the increased cost and the negative impact on the planet of moving trade from next door to far away?
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Of course we can.

But it does sound a bit hollow, when vast chunks of the goods bought by ordinary people in the West are built in S.E Asia.
I'd love to see people buy more local stuff. But it's probably a minority viewpoint, and we must be realistic.
 
tuga said:
What about all that scaremongering turned reality like eroding workers' rights or a move to a US-style light-fingered state serving business interests over those of the people and privatising as much of the public services as possible?
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It's big corporates which will erode rights. We could be on the edge of the next massive wave of technology replacing jobs in the decade to come.
Do you really think the likes of Amazon will employ people just to be nice?
 
kabayiri said:
Of course we can.

But it does sound a bit hollow, when vast chunks of the goods bought by ordinary people in the West are built in S.E Asia.
I'd love to see people buy more local stuff. But it's probably a minority viewpoint, and we must be realistic.
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I was thinking about necessary goods, like food. Also parts for the industry, both supply and demand. Am I being unrealistic?
 
kabayiri said:
It's big corporates which will erode rights. We could be on the edge of the next massive wave of technology replacing jobs in the decade to come.
Do you really think the likes of Amazon will employ people just to be nice?
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And you think that little UK ruled by a nationalist, isolationist, right-wing, pro-Trump government is interested in defending the people?
 
stevec67 said:
...
Of course the scapegoating wasn't reserved to places with lots of immigrants, it was rolled out in places like Grimsby and Barnsley where there are few but the place is dirt poor because of where it is. Blaming the immigrants, however few they are, is easy for everyone concerned.
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Don't you think the people in places like Grimsby and Barsnley were a little bit sick of being told how fabulous the EU was, when after 4 decades of membership, they still find themselves in some of the poorest parts?

Someone comes along in a referendum, and promises them change and new opportunity. They are going to grab it. That sounds like the standard mode of politicians to me.
 
kabayiri said:
Of course we can.

But it does sound a bit hollow, when vast chunks of the goods bought by ordinary people in the West are built in S.E Asia.
I'd love to see people buy more local stuff. But it's probably a minority viewpoint, and we must be realistic.
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More importantly, according to the ONS "Since 2009 the value of exports to non-EU countries is greater than that to EU countries". Does this perhaps mean that being a member wasn't stopping us from trading outside of the block? (and are you expecting small UK to make more beneficial trade deals with third party countries than heavy-weight EU?)
 
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