Who's had good results from upgraded power lead II

[BE718]

<moderating>

Ragaman & BE718: I advise backing away from this argument or you will both be removed from the site for a period of one month. You are both entrenched at the polar extremes and appear to have zero understanding or respect for the site AUP when it comes for ad hominem, insult or arrogance. You are a matched pair and will be moderated as such.

Excuse me Tony but I asked you to moderate Rags multiple and clearly baiting posts. I dont think you will find anyone to disagree with that interpretation of his recent posts. I have been VERY restrained in my replies and was doing my best to ignore - which is precisely why I asked you to intervene.

You have indicated previously that you want to censor this subject which I find extremely disappointing. However it is your site and you can operate it as you wish, but I think many would lose respect if that is the decision you chose to make.

I understand the AUP just fine, however I am being attacked for offering a differing POV. My position is no more entrenched than anyone elses here.

I am also the one trying to advance the discussion and encourage people to discuss the science and technicalities of the subject.

Now, I will not respond further to Rags baiting but frankly I expect you to deal with his offensive behaviour.

Also note that I am not the only one who find Rags presence in this thread disruptive. I point you to Sues earlier post, there are others:


On the other point, I was trying to put you off what seems to me to be a very self destructive line of attack, but you have failed to take the hint and instead turned your fire on me, so I shall be honest with you. My impression is that quite a few people think you have behaved like a dickhead on this thread. I was trying to get you to understand that some of us believe that you have dug yourself a hole, and should stop digging, but you have pressed on. You have done the 'subjectivist' viewpoint few favours throughout these 50 odd sorry pages and this thread would, I feel, have been somewhat better tempered without your contributions. Sorry to have to say that, but the discreet approach didn't seem to be working.


So I would appreciate it if you didnt make me out to be the bad guy here, and no, publicly "trying to bang both our heads together" like naughty school children is not an impressive tactic. If you want to shut the thread because it causes you an administrative headache then do so, but dont expect me to stop posting my opinion. I certainly dont expect to get banned just for doing so, especially when being abused by another poster.

I hope you see fit to moderate in a more appropriate manner in future.

 

[DevillEars]

Let me see if I understand the proposed power cord testing approach correctly:

a) Objective Test: Based on measurements of parameters (not sure which)
b) Subjective Test: Based on listening (not sure under which criteria)

Process:

- A sample power cord to be supplied for both a) and b) above
- Sample cord to be installed (not sure where - wall to strip vs strip to component)
- Tests a) and b) executed and documented

If only one sample power cord is used, I have some doubts as whether or not this approach has any real value - and let me explain why I have these doubts:

By way of an automotive analogy (which may or may not be 100% applicable but seems close:

If we equate the wall-to-strip cord as the HT lead from coil to distributor, and equate the distributor to the power strip and each component's power cord to a distributor-to-sparkplug HT lead and then use the car's engine performance as the equivalent of audio system SQ, then some questions arise:

1) Is the engine a 4-, 6- or 8-cylinder configuration (i.e. how many leads?)
2) Do we only replace one plug lead?
3) How do we measure for objective results (between which two test points?)
4) How do we assess for subjective results (idling? power output?)

Where I'm going is that by taking one sample power cord and applying it in one yet-to-be-defined power linkage while the rest of the power cords are left undefined, and then to expect to be able to subjectively identify specific areas of improvement is likely to be a tricky exercise. Likewise, the objective measurements are also likely to be "interesting" if specific and quantified results are expected.

Going back to the car engine analogy, I'd never consider replacing one plug lead on its own, I'd always replace all HT leads and, if required, the distributor rotor and cap, to ensure that the engine would perform properly - which could be evaluated subjectively via a test drive and objectively via a dyno test.

So my question is: Is this test approach a reasonable approach in that it will provide acceptable answers to both subjective assessment queries and objective measurement requirements?

Personally - specifically in this context - I have no idea as to whether or not this would be a valid approach.

In my IT environment, such a test approach would be flawed in that there would be too many variables in the process to support any meaningful conclusions - but then that's IT for you...

Unfortunately, I have no alternatives to offer...

BTW: This process is likely to demand a fair amount of time and effort on the part of the tester and some costs/risks on the part of cable provider, so maybe it would worthwhile to evaluate whether or not it will be a meaningful process (i.e. not trying wind up anyone here).

 

[DonQuixote99]

Question: does anyone else recall a post from Ragaman appearing shorty after my Proposition 1 post, accepting it without qualification, and asking that I proceed to "Proposition 2?"

The post by Ragaman is now gone; apparently he regretted his quick agreement with me. His privilege, but I did want to answer the query about Proposition 2. We'll proceed with it after a while, I wish if possible to ensure there's no dissent on Proposition 1 first. My goal is to identify common ground, and build on it.

 

[whatsnext]

Question: does anyone else recall a post from Ragaman appearing shorty after my Proposition 1 post, accepting it without qualification, and asking that I proceed to "Proposition 2?"

The post by Ragaman is now gone; apparently he regretted his quick agreement with me. His privilege, but I did want to answer the query about Proposition 2. We'll proceed with it after a while, I wish if possible to ensure there's no dissent on Proposition 1 first. My goal is to identify common ground, and build on it.

Confirmed

 

[h.g.]

Some cables are in fact offerings of rank snake oil, and it is hysterically pitiful*, that the purveyors find gullible-but-rich marks willing to fork over four-figure or higher prices for them.

You don't find the audiophile industry a good thing by paying taxes and providing an interest for people? There are plenty of examples in this thread of people who think so highly of their mains leads it improves the sound quality of what they hear. It also provides them with things to talk about and feel good about on forums like this. How much extra money is it worth paying for something like that?

That fact that audiophile mains cables are only very rarely in rather abnormal circumstances going to change the sound field enough to be be identified in a blind test is not important to the people who find them valuable.

 

[DONE]

I have a dedicated electric spur built into my house during it's renovation for my hifi setup & I am convinced that is better.

A mate of mine has built in a dedicated electric cable run for his hifi, too when he built his house & we both were enthusiastic how much better that was.

Well, he discovered lately by controlling the works of an electrician in his house, that in fact his hifi had been in the normal spur for the past 6 years and he had run his television on dedicated, instead..

Now..that is a bit embarrassing, but we silently agreed on ignoring it & are being proud of our dedicated spur to this day..

Make of that what you want, or...rather not.

Ah! he may have had things connected up in the wrong order, but I bet he had High Definition viewing on his telly.

 

[clivem2]

Question: does anyone else recall a post from Ragaman appearing shorty after my Proposition 1 post, accepting it without qualification, and asking that I proceed to "Proposition 2?"

The post by Ragaman is now gone; apparently he regretted his quick agreement with me. His privilege, but I did want to answer the query about Proposition 2. We'll proceed with it after a while, I wish if possible to ensure there's no dissent on Proposition 1 first. My goal is to identify common ground, and build on it.

Adding propositions one at a time comes across as trying to con people into a certain direction, I'm not saying that's your intent. Why not come up with several at once? BTW I agree with P1 or P1.01 as I believe there are some cynically hoping to cash in with low cost and high prices for a product that looks good but does little.

 

[Joe Hutch]

You don't find the audiophile industry a good thing by paying taxes and providing an interest for people? There are plenty of examples in this thread of people who think so highly of their mains leads it improves the sound quality of what they hear. It also provides them with things to talk about and feel good about on forums like this. How much extra money is it worth paying for something like that?

That fact that audiophile mains cables are only very rarely in rather abnormal circumstances going to change the sound field enough to be be identified in a blind test is not important to the people who find them valuable.

That's kind of where I am. It's not like a phoney medical treatment such as homeopathy, where actual harm could be done by not treating a 'real' condition. It's more of a consumer choice, like buying £250 designer jeans rather than £10 ones from Tesco. The cost-conscious will just shake their heads over the waste of money, whilst the denim aficionados will witter on about the weight of the cotton or the colour of the selvedge. It's simply not worth getting into a lather about, either way.

 

[formbypc]

Excuse me Tony but I asked you to moderate Rags multiple and clearly baiting posts. I dont think you will find anyone to disagree with that interpretation of his recent posts. I have been VERY restrained in my replies ...

Er, didn't you say, just a few pages back;


"Rag, considering I have explained this in the simplest of terms multiple times I can only conclude you are either moronic ... "


Sorry, but from here, that's condescending in the extreme, and not very restrained at all.

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2751372&postcount=7

 

[DonQuixote99]

You don't find the audiophile industry a good thing by paying taxes and providing an interest for people? There are plenty of examples in this thread of people who think so highly of their mains leads it improves the sound quality of what they hear. It also provides them with things to talk about and feel good about on forums like this. How much extra money is it worth paying for something like that?

That fact that audiophile mains cables are only very rarely in rather abnormal circumstances going to change the sound field enough to be be identified in a blind test is not important to the people who find them valuable.

The snake oil part is what's most regrettable IMHO. I hate to see dishonesty prosper, and this is a core value. Further, against the 'good effects' you mention must be set the cost of habituation, on the parts of all involved, to falsehood and deception, leading to it's being considered 'normal.' This, I feel, had manifold and far-reaching negative consequences.

 

[BE718]

That's kind of where I am. It's not like a phoney medical treatment such as homeopathy, where actual harm could be done by not treating a 'real' condition. It's more of a consumer choice, like buying £250 designer jeans rather than £10 ones from Tesco. The cost-conscious will just shake their heads over the waste of money, whilst the denim aficionados will witter on about the weight of the cotton or the colour of the selvedge. It's simply not worth getting into a lather about, either way.

Asda or Levi jeans will still operate as jeans. Do some these cables actually do what is implied? Note that often their efficacy is often implied as they know they are on dodgy ground making explicit claims.

I'm not sure anyone is getting in a lather.

 

[BE718]

The snake oil part is what's most regrettable IMHO. I hate to see dishonesty prosper, and this is a core value. Further, against the 'good effects' you mention must be set the cost of habituation, on the parts of all involved, to falsehood and deception, leading to it's being considered 'normal.' This, I feel, had manifold and far-reaching negative consequences.

I hink the snake oil does damage the hifi industry.

 

[suzywong]

Question (to DQ99): just what is the point of your proposition(s)?

 

[blossomchris]

Asda or Levi jeans will still operate as jeans.

Yeah, but Asda jeans are cat.



Bloss

 

[Joe Hutch]

Asda or Levi jeans will still operate as jeans. Do some these cables actually do what is implied? Note that often their efficacy is often implied as they know they are on dodgy ground making explicit claims.

I'm not sure anyone is getting in a lather.

Fancy mains cables will still convey electricity from the socket to the equipment. Almost every non-basic product will have some sort of 'implied' extra quality; that's how advertising works. Fancy mains cables are very much an optional purchase, and it's easy enough to borrow them for a trial period, which is not the case for many other luxury goods.

Now, it's perfectly possible to make a case against consumerism, capitalism and advertising as all being designed to take money from gullible, relatively poor people and give it to unscrupulous, relatively rich people, but fancy mains cables are surely a minor manifestation of this process, and I doubt anyone is making a fortune out of flogging them.

 

[BE718]

Er, didn't you say, just a few pages back;


"Rag, considering I have explained this in the simplest of terms multiple times I can only conclude you are either moronic ... "


Sorry, but from here, that's condescending in the extreme, and not very restrained at all.

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2751372&postcount=7

Yes, I was provoked into response by his repeated baiting after which I did little to respond further. Why did you clip the pertinent bit off the end?

"or more likely on a deliberate wind up."


Can I suggest this is left for tony to deal with?

 

[Purité Audio]

Fancy mains cables will still convey electricity from the socket to the equipment. Almost every non-basic product will have some sort of 'implied' extra quality; that's how advertising works. Fancy mains cables are very much an optional purchase, and it's easy enough to borrow them for a trial period, which is not the case for many other luxury goods.

Now, it's perfectly possible to make a case against consumerism, capitalism and advertising as all being designed to take money from gullible, relatively poor people and give it to unscrupulous, relatively rich people, but fancy mains cables are surely a minor manifestation of this process, and I doubt anyone is making a fortune out of flogging them.

But it is just a short hop from mains cables to boxes of dirt!
Keith

 

[DonQuixote99]

Question (to DQ99): just what is the point of your proposition(s)?

As I said, to establish common ground, and build on it. I have this notion that we can isolate areas on which people of good will can differ, with may in fact turn out to be not-so-large, and thus all remain people of good will, if we wish.

I didn't pick my user name for nothing, see?

 

[nbaptista]

I had good results with a Rega power lead. All the power leads I tryed before were worst than the standard power lead!

 

[BE718]

Fancy mains cables will still convey electricity from the socket to the equipment. Almost every non-basic product will have some sort of 'implied' extra quality; that's how advertising works. Fancy mains cables are very much an optional purchase, and it's easy enough to borrow them for a trial period, which is not the case for many other luxury goods.

Now, it's perfectly possible to make a case against consumerism, capitalism and advertising as all being designed to take money from gullible, relatively poor people and give it to unscrupulous, relatively rich people, but fancy mains cables are surely a minor manifestation of this process, and I doubt anyone is making a fortune out of flogging them.

Aaaahhh but the point is that they claim/imply they do a whole lot more than just get juice to your kit.

I think that yours is a very moderate interpretation of what the marketers of many of these cables try to imply about their technical efficacy. Just look back in thread at the russ Andrews complaint where they ended up back pedalling admitting there's is no evidence they do what we say when in normal use.

I think it's a red herring to say it's ok just because it's a luxury product.