War declared, Israel v Palestine...

[Seanm]

I feel like I've woken up in different country, I knew there was a tangible shift to the right both politically and socially but I don't recognise the UK anymore. The place has transformed over a very short period into a morally bankrupt rabid right wing shit-hole.
Thankfully I obtained an Irish passport recently, I'm ashamed of my UK one.

I think it’s political but not social, or anyway official politics is just completely disconnected from the politics that most people want to see. Very few people are seeing their feelings on all of this represented by politicians or the media. It’s more and more obvious what a sham democracy is in this country.

 

[paulfromcamden]

Useful Twitter account run by Shayan Sardarizadeh from BBC Verify listing the misinformation and hoaxes being circulated on social media.

Interesting that sophisticated deep fake videos like the one featuring Bella Hadid are now appearing. I'm taking anything that isn't from a reputable verified source with a very large pinch of salt.

https://twitter.com/Shayan86

 

[Finnegan]

Really disappointed with Krishnan Guru-Murthy’s abysmal interview with the PSC’s Ben Jamal last night. He continually berated Jamal to denounce “from the river to the sea” despite Jamal’s attempts to explain the origin and context of the phrase, before rudely and abruptly cutting him off.

Channel 4 news is still exponentially better than the BBC, but last night‘s interview was a sobering reminder that they will still toe the establishment line of “Israel’s right to exist’ rather than calling for the dismantling of the racist, colonial-settler, apartheid state.

28 mins in.

 

[roman]

Yes, I agree. But after 1,500 Israelis were murdered what else could Israel do? Under any government. 1,500 is the equivalent of 110,000 Brits being suddenly murdered, and Isrealis, from the far left to the far right will not forget this easily.
Israel's current government is obscene. But it was democratically elected, and if it was elected it is also due to the failure of Israel's left and centre to convince the voters. I spoke this spring to a lady who is the former secretary of the Israeli Labour Party (a tiny shadow of what it once was, I think they only got 2 or 3 MPs) who told me they had refused to merge into one of the more central parties because it would have undermined their traditional identity and political principles. So Bibi&Co. got elected.
So Bibi and the imbecile Ben-Gvir did things, like repeated visits to the Dome of the Rock, that angered not just Palestinians, but Musilims all over the world, laying the perfect groundwork for Hamas to murder 1,500 civilians and then call on Musilims all over the world to join the holy war.

You mention a political solution. I am pessimistic. Hamas will soon run out of missiles, Egypt (which refuses to let anyone of of Gaza) will mediate a ceasefire, Israel will reinforce its defences north and south and claim Hamas has been all but destroyed, Hamas will announce a "Great Victory" over the Zionists. And we are back to square one.

Certainly the US can apply pressure. But what kind of pressure will Iran, which controls and finances Hamas, apply? What about Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Qatar, Saudi Arabia? How many of these countries, Israel's neighbours, can ensure peace and stability within their own borders, let alone collaborate towards a peaceful settlement with Israel? How many of these countries would really support the creation of a Palestinian state?

I don't know the answers.

As I say, I am not optimistic.

Could you use the same working out to discover the equivalent British death toll using Palestinian deaths in Gaza as a starting point?

 

[gavreid]

Channel 4 news is still exponentially better than the BBC, but last night‘s interview was a sobering reminder that they will still toe the establishment line of “Israel’s right to exist’ rather than calling for the dismantling of the racist, colonial-settler, apartheid state.

Liberating Egypt is central to this. What's the population 100m? More possibly. Start with the overthow of Sisi, that must be a doable objective, given 2011, right? That revolution grew from the 2nd Intifada so why not again today? What are the obstacles? That would create another revolt across the arab world. Breaking the back of the US-Israel alliance is a necessity and this kind of process is the only realistic mechanism.

 

[MVV]

I think it’s political but not social, or anyway official politics is just completely disconnected from the politics that most people want to see. Very few people are seeing their feelings on all of this represented by politicians or the media. It’s more and more obvious what a sham democracy is in this country.

I feel like that and I'm confused about how we got here. Was it always like that but easier to hide? I don't believe in some dark strategic conspiracy tending to favour the accidental shitness and rubbish expediency of people theory. Thinking about it probably a different thread.

 

[Nick_G]

I feel like that and I'm confused about how we got here. Was it always like that but easier to hide? I don't believe in some dark strategic conspiracy tending to favour the accidental shitness and rubbish expediency of people theory.

I think Trump paved the way for this. He showed that you could lie with impunity, and the Brexiters who had taken over the Tory Party realised that they could do the same. This is one of the major factors that is so corrosive to a functioning democracy, and the fact that social media amplifies and spreads such lies & misinformation so widely adds fuel to the fire.

 

[Tony L]

Excellent article in The Guardian from Owen Jones. Again I’d argue the turning a blind-eye to mass murder indicates radicalisation. I’m certainly coming to the conclusion the UK has gone crazy hyped-up on the xenophobia and outright racism of our government and far-right press over the past 14 years. If people can even enter a debate as to whether genocide and apartheid is acceptable or not we are in an extraordinarily dangerous place. As a political outsider I’m terrified. This is just insane, and any criticism or push back is increasingly being criminalised. The ‘free speech’ lot are fine when it is about their right to hurl vile racist or transphobic slurs around, but when it comes to calling out state brutality, mass murder and even fascism there is a risk of losing jobs, being branded a ‘terrorist’, going to jail etc.

As Gaza crumbles, those speaking up for innocent Palestinians are being silenced and sacked | Owen Jones

Simply opposing violence against civilians is to risk career and reputation. Where are the defenders of ‘free speech’ now, asks Guardian columnist Owen Jones

www.theguardian.com

 

[Finnegan]

I think Trump paved the way for this. He showed that you could lie with impunity, and the Brexiters who had taken over the Tory Party realised that they could do the same. This is one of the major factors that is so corrosive to a functioning democracy, and the fact that social media amplifies and spreads such lies & misinformation so widely adds fuel to the fire.

I think it goes way back before Trump, at least as far back as Thatcher & Reagan. They both represented a reaction to the post war consensus and the long economic boom that saw living standards rise year upon year and culminated in the widespread uprisings of 1968- Paris, Berlin, The Tet Offensive, the huge anti-Vietnam war protests across the globe. Thatcher and Reagan were both determined to roll back all the gains achieved during this period by principally and fundamentally smashing organised working class resistance. The Great Miner’s Strike 1984-85 was a decisive blow from which the trade union movement has only really begun to recover from over the last year or so.

There has been a rightward drift ever since, with the western Labour Parties essentially abandoning social democracy and tacking rightwards to ride the coat tails of right wing populism. In the U.K. the Tories have become ever more brazenly confident of doing precisely what they like as they realise Starmer’s timid acquiescence represents no opposition whatsoever. Meanwhile, as the economic and environmental crises deepens, ordinary people, whose historical political parties have abandoned them, become more receptive to the sorts of deflection, scapegoating and easy answers of the right wing populists. Trump in the US and Farage and Johnson in the U.K. are the logical conclusion of this process. Utterly, utterly debased, corrupt, and ever more authoritarian.

 

[Finnegan]

Liberating Egypt is central to this. What's the population 100m? More possibly. Start with the overthow of Sisi, that must be a doable objective, given 2011, right? That revolution grew from the 2nd Intifada so why not again today? What are the obstacles? That would create another revolt across the arab world. Breaking the back of the US-Israel alliance is a necessity and this kind of process is the only realistic mechanism.

Agreed. Egypt is the key. More precisely, the Egyptian working class.

 

[wacko]

“The Bible says there is a time for peace, and a time for war. This is a time for war”

Radicalised far-right religious extremist Benjamin Netanyahu justifying his slaughter of civilians (mostly children).

(Quote taken from footage on Sky TV News right now, so no link)

Well at least he will be going to the hell he believes in.

 

[russel]

Could you use the same working out to discover the equivalent British death toll using Palestinian deaths in Gaza as a starting point?

The number is a factor of ten out but still utterly horrific. The figures would be about 10,000 UK citizens killed and scaled up it would be 20,000 children killed in retaliation.

 

[ks.234]

What’s the difference between a “humanitarian pause” and a “ceasefire”?

 

[wacko]

Liberating Egypt is central to this. What's the population 100m? More possibly. Start with the overthow of Sisi, that must be a doable objective, given 2011, right? That revolution grew from the 2nd Intifada so why not again today? What are the obstacles? That would create another revolt across the arab world. Breaking the back of the US-Israel alliance is a necessity and this kind of process is the only realistic mechanism.

It will just give Israel the excuse to destroy yet another Arab country. Either directly or using it's obedient proxy : the world superpower !

 

[MVV]

What’s the difference between a “humanitarian pause” and a “ceasefire”?

Pausing humanity? Mind you, can't be that, we've got that already.

 

[Seanm]

I feel like that and I'm confused about how we got here. Was it always like that but easier to hide? I don't believe in some dark strategic conspiracy tending to favour the accidental shitness and rubbish expediency of people theory. Thinking about it probably a different thread.

Sounds glib but yes it has always been this way: Britain is institutionally, constitutionally run according to a Good Chap system, where people who know best decide amongst themselves how things should be done and engage every now and then in some electoral pageantry so they can pass it off as the will of the people. No conspiracy, it’s just what political historians call the British Political Tradition.

It’s under a lot of strain now partly because of establishment decadence - no more Good Chaps. But they’re decadent largely because they won: there’s no organised labour movement to fight or co-opt so they’re entirely inward-facing, it’s just unscrupulous, ambitious people vying for position with no knowledge of or interest in the people they notionally represent. Meanwhile yes it’s harder to hide because there are alternatives to the Times and the Guardian, and because these people are compelled to put their junk in front of the public 24/7.

Corbyn years were catalysing in a couple of ways. On the one hand politicians saw they had absolutely no need to win arguments or cultivate support, they could just work their media contacts and flood the zone with shit, year on year, until people gave up and just let them have their jobs back. On the other hand anyone paying attention saw this for what it was a drew the obvious conclusions. Hence, for example, nobody’s buying the antisemitism stuff this time around.

 

[paulfromcamden]

What’s the difference between a “humanitarian pause” and a “ceasefire”?

Based on this Al Jazeera piece a ceasefire carries with it connotations of de-escalation whereas a 'humanitarian pause' is a quick pit stop before everyone carries on as they were.

It's the difference between "maybe you shouldn't be bombing children" and "maybe you could stop bombing children for a day".

Ceasefire, pause or truce? What have Israel and Hamas agreed to?

A look at the terms dividing UN Security Council members in their efforts to temporarily halt fighting in Gaza.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[MartinC]

The surrounding Arab countries could have accepted the existence of Israel and lived in peace with her, and greatly benefited by a thriving modern economy, a democracy, next door.

One could certainly make a case that without the direct injection of US funding in excess of $3.3 billion per year the economy may not be as rosy as made out.

 

[Somafunk]

What’s the difference between a “humanitarian pause” and a “ceasefire”?

A humanitarian pause is the application of a band aid before resuming operational directives whereas a ceasefire is cessation of all operational directives

 

[PaulMB]

One could certainly make a case that without the direct injection of US funding in excess of $3.3 billion per year the economy may not be as rosy as made out.

You can try and make a case, if you think it valid. But, as far as I know, the Israeli economy has flourished by its own efforts and per capita income is on par with the major European nations. American support is for defence, since Israel has to spend over 20% of its GDP on this.
But if you have relevant statistics I would be happy to read them.