Speeches in parliament over anti-semitic activities.
- Thread starter HydeLea
- Start date
Witchfinder-general
pfm member
Just watching the BBC 10 o'clock news, a report on the latest Saudi airstrikes on Yemen, killing a wedding party of 20, the report focused on the UK government's support for the Saudi regime. Is anyone really really angry about this? TBH it was horrible watching a boy clinging to his dead father, a true reminder about the horrors of war, of course especially if the targets are civilians.
jackbarron
Chelsea, London
Yeah it is a great article. It explains historically what Livingstone did well and how he messed up badly. David Rosen worked for a Jewish Socialist Group project funded by the GLC, when Ken was its leader. He explains what the Board of Deputies and the Tories were like and how they intermingled.
When Livingstone said Hitler supported Zionism on the radio, a kind of cultural bomb went off. Rosen knew Lenni Brenner, the author of the book Ken based his comments on. He criticizes the writer and the book heavily.
He then goes on to say "Shami Chakrabarti rightly pointed out in her report, from the Inquiry that followed in the weeks after Livingstone’s remarks, critics of Israeli policy could “use the modern universal language of human rights, be it of dispossession, discrimination, segregation, occupation, persecution and … leave Hitler, the Nazis and the Holocaust out of it”.
"I agree with her wholeheartedly. The case against Israel’s occupation and ill-treatment of the Palestinians is unanswerable. Trying to base that case on what some Zionists did in Germany in the 1930s will always end up diverting the argument towards accusations of antisemitism, and ultimately lets both the Israeli government and the Zionist movement in 2017 off the hook."
Rosen pinpoints exactly how MP Naz Shah was antisemitic, which she apologized for. He argues when Livingstone butted in he undermined Corbyn and the left wing of Labour. He doesn't however completely write him off.
"I do not believe Livingstone is antisemitic. Nor do I believe that right-wing Jews whom the media treats as spokespersons have any right to define what is offensive to all Jews. I respect the integrity of the longstanding socialist and Labour Jewish activists who gave supportive testimony at Livingstone’s hearing, several of whom I know personally. However I do believe that Livingstone deliberately invites controversy and notoriety, that his judgement on these issues is very poor, that he has set back the Palestinian cause by his utterances, and made life more difficult for the embattled left-wing Labour leadership."
Ken blew it quite badly. It is a good job he has left the Labour Party.
Jack
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monkfish
pfm Member
Interesting piece on Ken Livingston and the resignation.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/05/23/pers-m23.html
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/05/23/pers-m23.html
maxflinn
pfm Member
I certainly agree here and have been saying the same for ages:
"Former MP and mayor of London Ken Livingstone has left the Labour Party after 50 years of membership.
His resignation is the end product of a slanderous campaign led by the Blairites within Labour and various Zionist groups who, over the past two years, have mounted a witch hunt claiming the Labour Party and the entire “left” is riven with anti-Semitism. Their purpose is twofold:"
- With extensive funding and support from the government of Benjamin Netanyahu, it seeks to silence criticism of Israel’s brutal treatment of the Palestinians through the slanderous equation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism—therefore branding most left-wing politics as racist and reactionary.
- The witch hunters are using charges of anti-Semitism as a lever with which to push the Labour Party further to the right and, ideally, remove Jeremy Corbyn and his followers from the leadership.
Still
he said his naim was ralph
Max has been Trumped!
Real witch hunts were extrajudicial, and conducted by those in power against those who had none.
ff1d1l
pfm Member
That, indeed, about nails it. Can't see why some on here entertain a contrary view.
Still
he said his naim was ralph
For a start because there's no witch hunt.
Approx' 50k people, mostly women, were executed in Europe during the actual witch hunt lasting from around 1400-1750.
maxflinn
pfm Member
'Sychophant Still' just echoes Tony's view, as he does on everything. He has no thoughts of his own.
Best ignored.
Seanm
pfm Member
The David Rosenberg article linked to by KS above is excellent, the WSWS one is really crude and unhelpful. Livingstone's done a lot for London workers in general and for anti-racism in particular. I think the GLC was hugely important historically and its legacy is something we will be going back to build on. But he's gone full-blown crank on Hitler, he just can't help himself. He did the right thing by leaving.
Because it doesn't nail it: yes, the right, including the BoD, are quite happy to instrumentalise this in order to undermine the left. But there is also anti-semitism on the left and Livingstone constantly banging on about Zionists collaborating with Hitler is one of the things that helps to legitimise it. The main reason the issue is still hanging around is that some on the left can't face up this.
Because it doesn't nail it: yes, the right, including the BoD, are quite happy to instrumentalise this in order to undermine the left. But there is also anti-semitism on the left and Livingstone constantly banging on about Zionists collaborating with Hitler is one of the things that helps to legitimise it. The main reason the issue is still hanging around is that some on the left can't face up this.
Still
he said his naim was ralph
You aren't taking your own advice - this has to be the ultimate ignore fail!
The wit and wisdom of Trump has been absorbed by maxflinn.
I find all this discussion pointless. Israel couldn’t care one jot. They care about one thing - Security. All their actions are based on that sole factor. The shot 50+ Hamas militants and about as many others also trying to blow up or cut through the Gaza/Israel border as otherwise there would have been complete carnage. Israel does not occupy Gaza. There are no Israelis in Gaza. It is a limited blockade (many goods are allowed in) entirely due to a Hamas being in power. When Fatah were in power, some 500,000 Gaza residents worked in Israel.
Corbyn is appalling as he takes sides on international issues which are none of his business, such as Ireland and Israel, where his views are anti-colonialist. He is probably not an anti-Semite; he gets on famously with Jews who happen to be Marxist/Communist anti-Zionists. i don’t think he has much time for anyone who is not Marxist/Communist anti-Zionist, Jewish or otherwise.
There is also some impression that the Board of Deputies are a bunch of rabid Tories. I’ve known the recently elected President of the Board of Deputies for years and that’s certainly not my impression. Most Jews are politically centrist or centre-left, but the current Labour leadership deem anyone not of their persuasion to be hard right or Fascist.
Ken Livingstone obviously just misses the limelight and in seeking a bit of publicity was so offensive he dug his own grave. Had he not been pushed into “resigning”, Chakrabarti would have resigned within a couple of days (as she threatened) and given the moderates enough reason to challenge Corbyn on the grounds that he had made himself unelectable (which he is anyway).
Corbyn is appalling as he takes sides on international issues which are none of his business, such as Ireland and Israel, where his views are anti-colonialist. He is probably not an anti-Semite; he gets on famously with Jews who happen to be Marxist/Communist anti-Zionists. i don’t think he has much time for anyone who is not Marxist/Communist anti-Zionist, Jewish or otherwise.
There is also some impression that the Board of Deputies are a bunch of rabid Tories. I’ve known the recently elected President of the Board of Deputies for years and that’s certainly not my impression. Most Jews are politically centrist or centre-left, but the current Labour leadership deem anyone not of their persuasion to be hard right or Fascist.
Ken Livingstone obviously just misses the limelight and in seeking a bit of publicity was so offensive he dug his own grave. Had he not been pushed into “resigning”, Chakrabarti would have resigned within a couple of days (as she threatened) and given the moderates enough reason to challenge Corbyn on the grounds that he had made himself unelectable (which he is anyway).
ff1d1l
pfm Member
Definition of witch hunt. 1 : a searching out for persecution of persons accused ofwitchcraft. 2 : the searching out and deliberate harassment of those (such as political opponents) with unpopular views.
maxflinn
pfm Member
Please don't infest this site with such vile propaganda. The Israelis butchered women and children, and many young men who were hundreds of metres away from the so-called 'border'. None of them had bombs!
Watch the video ''Killing Gaza' and you'll see the absolutely horrific crimes of the terrorist state of Israel laid bare.
Even right-wingers are now ceasing support for this terror state given its barbarity.
Seanm
pfm Member
I’m sorry but this - all of it - is complete nonsense.
Witchfinder-general
pfm member
I suppose 'the left' could stop making it so easy for these accusations of anti-Semitism to stick by focusing on other middle eastern states military aggression or human rights abuses, there's quite a little shop of horrors to choose from. Assad who has slaughtered hundreds of thousands and displaced millions of his own people. Saudi airstrikes on Yemen (aided by the UK state!), Turkey's current purge of 'terrorist sympathisers' (anyone critical of the regime!). And the general treatment of half the population of many Islamic countries own population (women), with Iran being a standout example here, with its own 'Islamic police'!
maxflinn
pfm Member
Why don't you stop telling people who they ought and ought not be criticising?
Still
he said his naim was ralph
Yet the literal and metaphorical lack of mass burnings/duckings suggests no witch hunt.
The fundamental problem is AS in Labour, and the failure to deal with it in a timely and transparent manner.
Deflecting by making those talking/reporting/concerned about it the problem continues to be damaging, and ultimately self defeating, for Labour.
Well argued.