TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
So’s we can move on.
Should Scotland be an independent country?
- Thread starter Deej
- Start date
Ponty
pfm Member
It’s interesting, the vast majority of views I hear directly from Scots is that they absolutely don’t want independence. Whether it’s to do with the section of people I hear this from (business folk) but it seems in stark contrast from most of the (vocal) Scots posting here. I spend time in Scotland pretty often. My gut feel is that a second ref would reject independence. Scots might hate the Torys but they also reject labour (along with the rest of the UK it seems). Doesn’t leave much else to actually vote for in a GE does it.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
How many Scots do you ‘know’? I’m always interested to hear anecdote but in the end the numbers count. You’ll have seen the same election results as me, so your sample isn’t just in stark contrast to those posting on here, it would appear to be in in stark contrast to Scotland as a whole.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
Produced? Don’t you mean plagiarised?
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news...s-identical-to-new-zealand-treasury-document/
The serious side is they would have done this copy/paste from New Zealand because they are clueless. What else have they nicked and/or are lying about?
Anyway, here is some info from the SNP ( or is it New Zealand ) documentation mentioned on the BBC website about Scotland remaining tied to England and monetary policy for at least 10 years.
An independent Scotland would keep the pound for at least 10 years under proposals set out by the SNP's Growth Commission.
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But under those circumstances Scotland would have to accept monetary policy and interest rates set by the Bank of England without any concern for the economic circumstances in Scotland.
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The commission says Scotland should keep sterling after independence, with the Bank of England continuing to set interest rates and other monetary policies.
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-44237957
This is a key part of the SNP plan for independence and you folks are clamouring for it? Your dislike of the English must run deep. All based on emotions and not much of any substance.
The Sturgeon said during a tv interview many who voted SNP did not do so because they want independence, Heard her myself, matt. Sure, many do, but many do not.
I doubt there will be a majority for independence in a second run at it. There are Scots a whole lot more sensible than some of those posting on pfm.
I dunno, they seem pretty sensible to me wanting to be free from our complete shower.
gassor
There may be more posts after this.
The Bank of England is wholly owned by the UK government. The Bank of England through the MPC wholly controls interest rates. If Scotland were to continue using the pound it would have no say in setting interest rates or exchange rates ie it would not have economic autonomy (as I stated before). What basis is there for 'an equitable split', it's not workable and the government who owns the Bank would never allow it?
The big question is what happens after a few years shadowing the pound, there is where there is a lack of clarity on what is a vitally important matter. Until that is worked out I feel we may have got on a lifeboat heading away from the Titanic, but without any kind of compass.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
My starting point in this is has in many ways being 'havering'. I've never been a supporter/member of the SNP and I voted 'No' in the last IndyRef. I've spent just over half my life in Scotland, having previously been born and lived in London's East End. The two are/were more different than I could have imagined when a child. Started off living in a house with an outside loo, moved out when it was condemned and knocked down. Then came to a part of Scotland where there are wooded areas a few mins away and I can see when there is snow on the hills across the Tay.
I voted 'No' last time for a number of reasons. Perhaps the biggest were the threat from the Tories that Scots independence would eject us from the EU. Which I wished (and wish) to remain within. Also a threat that we'd lose access to the BBC - which in large part I regard as vital despite its crappy 'news and politics' intervewing, etc. But also because I like the idea of people working *together* on all scales.
However the Tory+Brexit combo have driven a coach and horses though that. Now we *will* be out of the EU shortly and the 'threat' aimed at us last time has magically been reversed into being dragged out having noted 'No'. All you can trust the Tories to do, is lie.
Despite all the above it has been clear to me for years that the Sainted Nichola is an order of magnitude smarter and better clued than BloJo and his chums. They rely on their media/finance friends to keep them as the glove puppets so those friends can go on exploiting the rest of us. And their main influence is via Engerlund because that's their simplest vector.
So I assume the SNP are actually happy to play a long game. As the Tories keep refusing to allow another IndyRef the SNP can use that to gain *more* traction in Scotland. Any threats, dismissials, 'consequences', etc will probably be used to strengthen that. So I suspect the demand will grow, not fade.
It will be interesting to see if the Right can keep trotting out shadow-arguments based on the 'Get Brixit Done' (in ten seconds) shallowness for years to come. Yes, you can get a job 'done' if you do it badly in a rush because you're promised Unicorns by dinner time. But I wonder how long the Tories can dodge the blame for the effects to come.
But in the real world I suspect the SNP have understood that an IndyRef 'yes' is just a starting flag for what should be an 'as long as it takes' process of negotiation, etc. To minimise problems for all involved, both sides of any fence.
Yes, the process would be difficult. But so is leaving the EU. So if we must make changes, perhaps they should be the ones we'd prefer, not ones dictated over our heads by what now looks a lot like a foriegn government that rides over our wishes. And, yes, I'm starting to feel that for me the meaning of 'our' may be changing.
Against that, I can see the potential for people gradually realising what a protracted shambles the *real* Brexit process will be leading to people being horrified and not being able to face anything similar just to be rid of Engurlund and the Tories. But it then becomes a question of which you hate most, not what you want. So isn't a pretty prospect.
We live in interesting times... alas.
But it seems reasonable to me that at least, given the above, another IndyRef should occur some time during the next few years. Just a matter of setting on a value for 'few'.
I voted 'No' last time for a number of reasons. Perhaps the biggest were the threat from the Tories that Scots independence would eject us from the EU. Which I wished (and wish) to remain within. Also a threat that we'd lose access to the BBC - which in large part I regard as vital despite its crappy 'news and politics' intervewing, etc. But also because I like the idea of people working *together* on all scales.
However the Tory+Brexit combo have driven a coach and horses though that. Now we *will* be out of the EU shortly and the 'threat' aimed at us last time has magically been reversed into being dragged out having noted 'No'. All you can trust the Tories to do, is lie.
Despite all the above it has been clear to me for years that the Sainted Nichola is an order of magnitude smarter and better clued than BloJo and his chums. They rely on their media/finance friends to keep them as the glove puppets so those friends can go on exploiting the rest of us. And their main influence is via Engerlund because that's their simplest vector.
So I assume the SNP are actually happy to play a long game. As the Tories keep refusing to allow another IndyRef the SNP can use that to gain *more* traction in Scotland. Any threats, dismissials, 'consequences', etc will probably be used to strengthen that. So I suspect the demand will grow, not fade.
It will be interesting to see if the Right can keep trotting out shadow-arguments based on the 'Get Brixit Done' (in ten seconds) shallowness for years to come. Yes, you can get a job 'done' if you do it badly in a rush because you're promised Unicorns by dinner time. But I wonder how long the Tories can dodge the blame for the effects to come.
But in the real world I suspect the SNP have understood that an IndyRef 'yes' is just a starting flag for what should be an 'as long as it takes' process of negotiation, etc. To minimise problems for all involved, both sides of any fence.
Yes, the process would be difficult. But so is leaving the EU. So if we must make changes, perhaps they should be the ones we'd prefer, not ones dictated over our heads by what now looks a lot like a foriegn government that rides over our wishes. And, yes, I'm starting to feel that for me the meaning of 'our' may be changing.
Against that, I can see the potential for people gradually realising what a protracted shambles the *real* Brexit process will be leading to people being horrified and not being able to face anything similar just to be rid of Engurlund and the Tories. But it then becomes a question of which you hate most, not what you want. So isn't a pretty prospect.
We live in interesting times... alas.
But it seems reasonable to me that at least, given the above, another IndyRef should occur some time during the next few years. Just a matter of setting on a value for 'few'.
gassor
There may be more posts after this.
The Growth Commission has said 10 years of continuing to use the pound, but the last SNP conference said 2 years then an independent Scotland should set up its own currency. The only problem is this is not remotely feasible. Scotland would need to reduce it's budget deficit (the worst in Europe) and would not be able to set up it's own Central Bank because it would not have the funds unless we had many years of severe austerity. These are the issues and why we need more clarity.
Ponty
pfm Member
Not as many as you, obviously. However, I don’t think Sturgeon can take it as read that everyone who voted SNP in the GE would, in the cold light of day, vote for independence in another referendum.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Scottish Government have to be clear with the public about the benefits and threats from this- none of us want a rerun of the absurd false beliefs and outright lies of the Brexit campaign that has damaged Britain’s international standing and economy. Unfortunately if we do nothing we will be damaged by Brexit and the nature of the party that has taken power in Westminster. Out of adversity, opportunity. Let’s take it.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Scottish Government will no doubt be watching the independence polling data continuously from here on in. Let’s take the GE election result in Scotland (in response to a manifesto commitment to hold a new referendum) as the starting point and see where that takes us. I’m guessing what the SNP leadership says will have a smaller impact on public opinion compared with what Boris Johnson says and does in the next five years. I have every confidence he is going to deliver the independence vote for us.
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Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
That’s fair enough but there is a cost they aren’t prepared to discuss or even acknowledge. Even with other Scots not in favour of independence.
I.D.C.
pfm Member
Brian I take offence with ( your dislike of the English ) I vote SNP support independence also as do many of my friends. None of us hate English it's never in the conversation. What does come up is a broken political system that has seen the rise of food banks, demise of working conditions which will only get worse especially if there is no trade deal. If Scotland gets independence it wont be the end of friendship with the rest of the uk we will still be a Royal state.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
I hope you realise I wasn’t thinking of you and most Scots when I wrote that, just 3 or 4 posting here who come across as arrogant and obnoxious. I’ve said previously I’ve never met any Scot in person with the attitude of a few here.
Anyway, as that kind of comment can be taken as it has by those such as yourself, I will not repeat it in future.
Apologises.
I.D.C.
pfm Member
Apologies Brian thought you meant all Scots. Told the wife to slap my head for that..
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
The cosmetics will be interesting. The DM has already had a front page “Boris To Love Bomb Scotland”. Might one expect love bombing the Boris way?-
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...bour-police-call-carrie-symonds-a8970741.html
The potential prime minister allegedly said “get off my f*****g laptop” before a loud crashing noise was heard.
In a recording of the altercation, obtained by The Guardian, Mr Johnson’s partner, Carrie Symonds, could reportedly be heard saying “get off me” and “get out of my flat”.
Scotland Yard confirmed police were alerted to the situation by a caller who “was concerned for the welfare of a female neighbour”.
Just as Sturgeon doesn't speak for the people of Scotland, which makes me cringe, neither does the recent vote speak for Scotland as a whole. The Nat's are doing their best to divide Scotland and the Union, but when the push comes to the shove the arithmetic on the single issue will still not come out in their favour.
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Joe
pfm Member
Boris can "allow " it now but the Scottish Government is under no obligation to hold it now..they can take their time.
( all unless the UK government doesn't issue a Ref permission with a time limit on it )