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Roger Waters

Tony L said:
I’m amazed you are defending it.
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I’m not defending it, I just have a general disinterest for celebrities shouting out some messages in order to save the world. Mostly it’s about selling more records. To me the recent Waters incident is just another episode of his lifelong self-therapy.

There are very few political messages I admire, the Sinead O’Connor / pope moment deserving a special mention. An unprecedented act of bravery by a totally authentic artist.

PS: AC/DC is the epitome of a band that just does its job, they shut up and they play. One more reason I like them.
 
AC/DC - absolute killer band in their prime:


Always found Pink Floyd pretentious and dull but there's no doubt in my mind that Roger Waters is being smeared and that recent events are a dangerous attack on freedom of artistic expression.
 
Regardless of how serious you take his opinions or themes in his music or shows - and to some degree his public/personal views - this attempt at him being cancelled ( I hate that word in this context and have never used it but this is clearly about as good a definition of it as I have come across) on grounds of antisemitism is verging on Kafkaesque, it's comical. Labour hitching their wagon to stuff like this would make me really uneasy about giving them my vote.
 
Cheese said:
It looks like Waters is not a very good communicator. The original The Wall plot is tricky enough, does it have to be complicated even further with ambiguous political messages ? Why doesn’t he just make music. He is not going to fix anything in Palestine.
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Yeah just take the money and keep quiet.
No he is not 'going to fix anything in Palestine' but he has the courage to shine a light on it. His message on Palestine is unambiguous. The Zionist lobby is extremely powerful and alert to silence such people.
 
I’m publishing Starmer’s letter in full as to my untrained eyes it is clearly libellous. The source is here Board Of Deputies Of British Jews (Twitter).



“Dear Marie,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I found the examples listed in your letter, of instances in which Roger Waters has clearly espoused antisemitic views to his audiences, highly disturbing.

There is no place for antisemitism anywhere, at any time and those who hide behind the excuse that artists in the entertainment industry should not be held to the same standards as others are utterly wrong. There should be no artistic license for discrimination and racism.

The Labour Party stands with the Jewish community and fully condemns Roger Waters. Many people will think of Roger Waters as famous for being a member of one of the most important bands in history, but he is now more synonymous with spreading deeply troubling antisemitism and that is why I believe this show should not be allowed to go ahead. Views like this should not be given a platform.

Could you please advise whether you have received a response from the public bodies in question? You have my wholehearted support in this matter and wherever I can lend my
voice to impress how serious this is, I will.

Yours sincerely,



Rt Hon Keir Starmer MP
Leader of the Labour Party”



I’ve marked in bold the bits I suspect are libellous.

They highlighted statements make the claim Waters is antisemitic, they do so without any ambiguity to my eyes, and then go on to say his show should not be allowed a platform. An inaccurate accusation followed by the attempt to sink a multi-£million business venture. The venues are private too. This is very different to say platforming a racist or homophobe in a state-funded university or whatever. I think we may need some popcorn here if Starmer digs in any further. I’d like nothing more than see him and his party facing a multi-£million lawsuit!
 
This isn't about Waters.

Waters is just another high-profile billboard who can be used to demonstrate what will happen to anyone who criticises the Netanyahu government.

Waters is being beaten with the AS stick as a warning to any politicians with actual power, not to go up against the policies of the Israeli hard right.

To a certain extent, Gove and Stormer are backed into a corner. If they don't capitulate and condemn Waters, then they are leaving themselves open to being vilified and their political careers destroyed.

If they will go after an ageing rock-star, they will definitely go after anyone else.

I'm sorry to say this, but I now automatically assume accusations of AS are malicious and simply reject them unless there is any credible evidence. The little boy has cried wolf too many times now.
 
bor said:
If they will go after an ageing rock-star, they will definitely go after anyone else.
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The interesting thing here is Waters could likely buy and sell Starmer without noticing. I have no idea what he’s worth, but I’d have thought the royalties for DSOTM alone is worth many times the total value of the Labour Party. Starmer may have been able to bully people like Corbyn, Driscoll etc, but Waters is a whole different ballpark. UK law is only available to the very wealthy, and Waters is precisely that.
 
Tony L said:
I’m publishing Starmer’s letter in full as to my untrained eyes it is clearly libellous. The source is here Board Of Deputies Of British Jews (Twitter).



“Dear Marie,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I found the examples listed in your letter, of instances in which Roger Waters has clearly espoused antisemitic views to his audiences, highly disturbing.

There is no place for antisemitism anywhere, at any time and those who hide behind the excuse that artists in the entertainment industry should not be held to the same standards as others are utterly wrong. There should be no artistic license for discrimination and racism.

The Labour Party stands with the Jewish community and fully condemns Roger Waters. Many people will think of Roger Waters as famous for being a member of one of the most important bands in history, but he is now more synonymous with spreading deeply troubling antisemitism and that is why I believe this show should not be allowed to go ahead. Views like this should not be given a platform.

Could you please advise whether you have received a response from the public bodies in question? You have my wholehearted support in this matter and wherever I can lend my
voice to impress how serious this is, I will.

Yours sincerely,



Rt Hon Keir Starmer MP
Leader of the Labour Party”



I’ve marked in bold the bits I suspect are libellous.

They highlighted statements make the claim Waters is antisemitic, they do so without any ambiguity to my eyes, and then go on to say his show should not be allowed a platform. An inaccurate accusation followed by the attempt to sink a multi-£million business venture. The venues are private too. This is very different to say platforming a racist or homophobe in a state-funded university or whatever. I think we may need some popcorn here if Starmer digs in any further. I’d like nothing more than see him and his party facing a multi-£million lawsuit!
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Isn’t he supposed to be a barrister? I would have thought that a barrister’s training and professional instincts would prevent them from libelling someone. Anyway, I think he may just have over-extended himself by picking on the wrong person. It’s one thing bullying minor functionaries in his own party, quite another a famous rock star with global reach.

There’s been much comment on this thread in relation to Water’s ego. People however come as packages, do they not? Without the self-aggrandisement and the unwavering belief that he’s right, Waters may not have had the confidence to speak out so loudly and make himself a target. It’s reminiscent of George Galloway’s destruction of the US Senate. George may be an arse of the first degree, but his hubris allowed him to humiliate the United States on a worldwide scale.
 
Tony L said:
I’m publishing Starmer’s letter in full as to my untrained eyes it is clearly libellous. The source is here Board Of Deputies Of British Jews (Twitter).



“Dear Marie,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I found the examples listed in your letter, of instances in which Roger Waters has clearly espoused antisemitic views to his audiences, highly disturbing.

There is no place for antisemitism anywhere, at any time and those who hide behind the excuse that artists in the entertainment industry should not be held to the same standards as others are utterly wrong. There should be no artistic license for discrimination and racism.

The Labour Party stands with the Jewish community and fully condemns Roger Waters. Many people will think of Roger Waters as famous for being a member of one of the most important bands in history, but he is now more synonymous with spreading deeply troubling antisemitism and that is why I believe this show should not be allowed to go ahead. Views like this should not be given a platform.

Could you please advise whether you have received a response from the public bodies in question? You have my wholehearted support in this matter and wherever I can lend my
voice to impress how serious this is, I will.

Yours sincerely,



Rt Hon Keir Starmer MP
Leader of the Labour Party”



I’ve marked in bold the bits I suspect are libellous.

They highlighted statements make the claim Waters is antisemitic, they do so without any ambiguity to my eyes, and then go on to say his show should not be allowed a platform. An inaccurate accusation followed by the attempt to sink a multi-£million business venture. The venues are private too. This is very different to say platforming a racist or homophobe in a state-funded university or whatever. I think we may need some popcorn here if Starmer digs in any further. I’d like nothing more than see him and his party facing a multi-£million lawsuit!
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I agree that's the dodgiest part of Starmer's letter, legally speaking, but I have a slightly different take.

I remember reading something by Michael Rosen (who ought to know about these things) that calling someone an antisemite is not, in itself, libellous. I can't remember the reason given but, presumably, it's regarded as the legitimate expression of an opinion, or something like that. In any case, Starmer's letter does not directly accuse Waters of being an antisemite.

However, it does something that is potentially worse, from a legal perspective: it suggests that Roger Waters is guilty of spreading antisemitism. This sounds more like a factual claim than an expression of opinion and (I think!) is more likely to be libellous than calling Waters an antisemite. If I were Waters, I'd be consulting my lawyers.

Whatever the legalities, Starmer's letter is craven, authoritarian and nauseating on multiple levels.
 
Finnegan said:
Isn’t he supposed to be a barrister? I would have thought that a barrister’s training and professional instincts would prevent them from libelling someone.
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This is what amazes me. I’m astonished he, of all people, put his name to such a letter. I’d have thought his legal background only increases any case Waters has too. Should it come to a court case I don’t see how Starmer could get out of that without conclusively proving Waters or his work The Wall was antisemitic. In UK libel law the onus of proof is with the defendant. A crazy system, and one clearly designed to protect elite rule. In this case it could well backfire.
 
droodzilla said:
However, it does something that is potentially worse, from a legal perspective: it suggests that Roger Waters is guilty of spreading antisemitism.
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Yes, agree completely. That is a hell of a hole to dig to try and block a multi-£million private businesses venture. I so hope there are lawyers soon!
 
By God I hope Waters sues Starmer and wins hugely. Starmer deserves to see his political and legal career go up in smoke for so many reasons.
 
Exactly. The sadness is that Corbyn while being accused of Stalin style behaviour would never have countenanced it and became the victim of it himself. I am so upset that he turned the other cheek rather than come out fighting. The 2017 election should have ended very differently. Though, no doubt, all of the trouble in store for the UK at that time would have been blamed on Corbyn by the MSM, the Tories, Lib Dems and the right of the PLP. Whatever happened around Brexit was always guaranteed to be controversial, Covid would have been bad whoever was in charge (though likely not the unimaginable disaster the tories made it) and i suspect his premiership would have been painted as a failure.
As bad as May was, if anyone had predicted the dystopian nightmare of tory rule since they would have been laughed at.
 
wacko said:
Yeah just take the money and keep quiet.
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In this particular case, yes, pretty much. I don’t remember many days in life when I didn’t hear of any problems or evolutions in the region, and many people are fed up with the topic anyway. It certainly doesn’t need any more exposure than this.

As a comparison, let me mention again Sinead O’Connor. John Lydon comes to mind also, they said things at a time no one else had the guts to.
 
Cheese said:
In this particular case, yes, pretty much. I don’t remember many days in life when I didn’t hear of any problems or evolutions in the region, and many people are fed up with the topic anyway. It certainly doesn’t need any more exposure than this.

As a comparison, let me mention again Sinead O’Connor. John Lydon comes to mind also, they said things at a time no one else had the guts to.
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Those 'days in life' started when Zionists decided to establish Israel on top of Palestine. And the British Government played a part in that. The fact this has gone on for so long makes it worse not boring.
Do you speak for 'many people' ? If you want to ignore the daily oppression and deaths you can do so, but no need to try to silence those who cannot.
 
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wacko said:
Do you speak for 'many people' ?
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The 'many people' I mean are those who can't play any sort of role in the matter. Those who can don't need an emotionally unstable and aging musician, who isn't taken very seriously anyway, to tell them what to do.
 
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