Big Tabs
looking backwards, going forwards
is this a description of a clique on pfm?
Roger Waters
- Thread starter Big Tabs
- Start date
is this a description of a clique on pfm?
Tony L
Administrator
…and you formed this opinion on less than five minutes of a 20+ minute video made by one of the most successful musicians of the 20th century? You really think you can judge him based on that information fragment? You think Waters doesn’t have a clue despite his having visited Palestine in person and having been a human rights campaigner for most of his life?
PS When I describe people such as Trump, Johnson, Farage etc as ‘scum’ I do so after reviewing hundreds and hundreds of hours of their behaviour over many, many years. It is a very well researched evidence-based position.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
Murderous occupation of Palestine and subjugation of its aboriginal population is wrong, I don’t find that a complex argument. Zionist settlers are evicting Palestinians, destroying their houses and tearing up their olive groves. One of the most fearsomely equipped security forces in the world are brutalising and shooting dead Palestinians, and have been doing so since they illegally occupied Palestine in 1948. Where should Waters have been nuanced in relation to the situation?
sideshowbob
Champagne fascia aficionado
The problem with Waters' support for the Palestinians is that he also repeats Assadist lies about Syria. Given that Assad is a butcher of Palestinians on a mass scale, this is perhaps where nuance matters. He also doesn't listen to the positions of any of the people he proclaims about, whether they be Syrian or Ukrainian, even though if he did that he might actually learn something.
I think this piece skewers his idiocy very well:
https://www.dailysabah.com/columns/...star-falls-from-grace-due-to-syrian-civil-war
I have no time for him at all. He does the cause of Palestinian liberation no favours at all.
I think this piece skewers his idiocy very well:
https://www.dailysabah.com/columns/...star-falls-from-grace-due-to-syrian-civil-war
I have no time for him at all. He does the cause of Palestinian liberation no favours at all.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
As I said upthread, he’s inconsistent. He’s contradictory. He isn’t in possession of a fully formed geopolitical perspective. He’s a rock star, not a diplomat. But he is one of the highest profile critics of Israeli crimes in the world and draws much attention to the situation, and shines a spotlight on Israel that would not exist if he did not speak out. I hope he continues to do so.
PaulMB
pfm Member
Well, yes. The fact that he is a successful musician does not give him any particular insight in other fields. Many people have visited Israel and Palestine, and the intelligent, balanced and wise ones have not afterwards spouted simplistic and one-sided analyses of the situation. History is full of wonderful musicians, but quite a few were horrible people. I think what drives Waters is his own vanity and ego, more than any concern for human rights. Didn't he go and speak at the UN on Putin's invitation? Didn't he then spout a load of drivel about how to stop the Ukraine war? Not a word about human rights in Russia.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Look! A squirrel!
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
In the interests of balance then, can you detail the opposing viewpoint on illegal occupation and genocide?
PaulMB
pfm Member
Not really, because there is not one opposing viewpoint. You would have to go back in history, starting 2,000 years ago and then up to the Zionist movement of the late 19th century. You'd have to examine the various migrations, Arab, Jewish and Christian, under the Ottoman Empire and later under the British Mandate 1918 - 1948, as well as the UN decision to partition Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab, in 1948. In 1900, at least half the population of Jerusalem was Jewish, and a good part Christian (Russians, Germans, Americans and Arabs) There was no sudden "Illegal occupation in 1948," in fact by the 1930s there was thriving industry and agriculture in Palestine, thanks to Jewish immigration. And Tel Aviv was a large modern city. If you want to get an idea, try Googling "Tel Aviv 1937" and go to "Images." It is a hugely complex situation and there are no apparent solutions. And in part this is due to the refusal of the surrounding Arab countries to accept the existence of Israel. These are all dictatorships, that have treated their own populations and any Palestinians who happened to cross their borders much worse than the Israelis have. A few years ago, in an Arab village sitting right on the border between Israel proper and the occupied territories the inhabitants were asked to choose if they wanted Israeli or Palestinian citizenship. All opted for Israeli citizenship.
So you have to read a some books and make up your own mind. Although I expect that the more books you read the less you will be able to adopt "a viewpoint."
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
I think you’ve (at least partly) hit the nail on the head. Jews and Arabs lived as neighbours in this region for centuries prior to the creation of the state of Israel. But it’s complete moral and political relativism to state there is no one viewpoint. Yes, the politics and history of the region are complex and will not be resolved in any facile and simple manner. But the fact is, an illegal occupation (detailed by numerous UN resolutions and condemned by Amnesty International) by a state backed by and armed to the teeth by the U.S. are practicing brutal genocide upon the Palestinians. I don’t know why it’s so difficult to acknowledge this.
The “surrounded by dictatorships” argument frequently neglects to mention that many of these dictatorships were, in the first instance, installed by and supported by the west.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Yeah, yeah, it's all very complicated, let's all just wring our hands in despair while Palestinians are driven off their land and killed.
Or, rather than go down that rabbit hole, how about returning to the original points, with which I rejuvenated this thread:
1. Waters' Berlin show this year has been the subject of lies and distortions.
2. Those lies and distortions have been picked up by the media and some MPs in this country.
3. Based on those lies and distortions, some MPs have demanded that Waters' UK shows be cancelled.
4. This is a direct and unambiguous attack on freedom of expression.
Waters has every right to be angry about this, and it's hard to avoid the conclusion that he has been targeted because he is a high-profile supporter of Palestinian rights.
Likewise Roger Waters has a great deal of previous in being boring and narcissistic, which is what Paul said. He may sometimes have a point in his political observations, but he's been narcissistic and somewhat boring on a number of matters for a great many years. He's been extremely narcissistic on the subject of DG and NM's input to Pink Floyd, for decades now.
Tony L
Administrator
Agreed. I’m not here to defend him, and FWIW I’m really not a fan of The Wall (two or three good tracks) or later-era Floyd. I’ve not had the slightest interest in his solo work and haven’t heard any of it. I do however rate his contribution far higher than some random attention-seeking gammon-right Labour MP though! Waters is fully entitled to his opinions. He is clearly no anti-Semite, no bigot, and those dumb enough to make such accusations do so at serious risk of libel. Art and music has always been at the forefront of protest and political momentum and I’ll defend anyone with the courage to speak out against an increasingly dark and oppressive political climate. That said the current old dad-rock scene is full of right-wing conspiracy theory bell-ends like Eric Clapton, Van Morrison and Right Said Fred!
Tony L
Administrator
If you think The Wall is tricky you must have some remarkably simplistic musical taste!
He’s doing fine IMO, he’s certainly running rings round our moronic politicians at present. He’ll win this one I’m sure. The controversy will introduce him to a younger and more active political generation and right-wing dickheads like Keir Starmer, Christian Wakeford, Michael Gove etc will stop short of cancelling him as the penny will eventually drop he’d easily win the multi-£million court case, as basically he’s right. He can’t lose here IMO. It’s like 1977, but with Keir Starmer playing the part of Bill Grundy. You can’t buy publicity of this level!
He’s doing fine IMO, he’s certainly running rings round our moronic politicians at present. He’ll win this one I’m sure. The controversy will introduce him to a younger and more active political generation and right-wing dickheads like Keir Starmer, Christian Wakeford, Michael Gove etc will stop short of cancelling him as the penny will eventually drop he’d easily win the multi-£million court case, as basically he’s right. He can’t lose here IMO. It’s like 1977, but with Keir Starmer playing the part of Bill Grundy. You can’t buy publicity of this level!
Tony L
Administrator
I never got AC/DC at all. Just not my thing. Neither is The Wall (though I like the disco-funk groove of Another Brick, and Comfortably Numb is obviously a good song). I will defend The Wall in that it is a ‘rock opera’ in the tradition of Tommy, Quadrophenia, Berlin, Joe’s Garage etc and the whole point of it is to tell a story. It is an ambitious work by any rock standards. The concepts of allegory, metaphor etc shouldn’t be off the table just because some gammons in the political sphere 45 years later are too thick and ignorant to recognise basic literary devices or too lazy to research the work in question. This is getting so close to Nazi/Taliban/DeSantis-style book burning. I’m amazed you are defending it.
PS I’m not looking to ban AC/DC!
PS I’m not looking to ban AC/DC!
sean99
pfm Member
That's very reassuring. Powerage is a very underrated album IMHO.