I struggle with that one too.The idea that the LP12s ability to convey timing information is somehow the result of a colouration is at odds with occam.
Speaking of Occam, LP12 managed to convey timing information well from the off, demonstrably as a result of the borrowing of inventive steps from over the 10 years prior.
Good point. I'm no expert but it seems to have been helped along by a better bearing design and also trial and error and a good ear, such as Martin Dalgleish's, although I guess Ivor did a fair bit by himself in the early years. A key element seems to be the managing the vibrations rather than trying to dampen them out but I've never heard anyone at Linn say much in detail. Ivor once told me that very few people really understand the LP12. No doubt that will annoy many folks here but I suspect it was this approach that he was referring to. Has anyone here heard anything similar?LP12 managed to convey timing information well from the off, demonstrably as a result of the borrowing of inventive steps from over the 10 years prior.
Makes sense to me.I think it was more chance than judgment. The sprung chassis concept is aimed at isolating the platter/arm from the outside world. Having the motor on the fixed part of the plinth is to isolate the motor noise. The latter in particular is not good for absolute speed stability but creates a pleasing effect nonetheless.
Yes, the first interview that Gramophone did with Ivor back in the '70s included his mention of the managing of vibrations, as they can't simply be eliminated.Good point. I'm not expert but it seems to have been helped on by a better bearing design and also trial and error and a good ear, probably Martin Dalgliesh's although I guess Ivor did a fair bit in the early years. It seems to all be about managing the vibrations rather than trying to dampen out but I've never heard anyone at Linn really say. Ivor once said to me that one problem is that very few people really understand the LP12. No doubt that will annoy many people but I think it was this approach that he's referring to.
I think it was more chance than judgment. The sprung chassis concept is aimed at isolating the platter/arm from the outside world. Having the motor on the fixed part of the plinth is to isolate the motor noise. The latter in particular is not good for absolute speed stability but creates a pleasing effect nonetheless.
Am I right in thinking that the Gyrodec has the same arrangement - platter and arm decoupled/suspended and motor not? Yet Gyrodec lacks the Linn's 'colourations'?
No - the wow and flutter measurements do have meaning and audible speed fluctuations should show up as relatively poor results.I wonder if wow and flutter measurements are not granular enough to detect what we’re hearing.
I did have a period from around 2000-12 where I was not happy with the deck and it got to the point where I would go months without playing records. It took a service and cartridge change to fix thi.
Thanks cre.No - the wow and flutter measurements do have meaning and audible speed fluctuations should show up as relatively poor results.
Further to that any speed fluctuations that are audible in normal playback should also be audible as pitch variations when playing a continuous single tone from a well cantered test record.
I am aware of the upside down pendulum theory touted by a few people including Richard Dunn (RIP) and I feel that I am able to dismiss that as well. Out of the suspended decks in my collection the Systemdek Transcription would be most prone to an issue with motor/belt pulling due to its very compliant springs/pronounced bounce and I do not get audible speed fluctuations with that one either.
My view is that the quavering people are hearing is down to something else most of the time and suspect standing waves is the most likely cause though slightly off centered records may be more common than people are aware of. Maybe there are other factors as well but I do not believe speed fluctuations in a well maintained deck should be one of them. A deck with higher resolution or different tonal balance may however make it easier to hear these issues.
As a hobbyist with 20 working decks I do have an interest in this as a topic. I have had 2 periods with my LP12 where the deck has performed really well for me and it was rare for me to have a record that sounded off. I did have a period from around 2000-12 where I was not happy with the deck and it got to the point where I would go months without playing records. It took a service and cartridge change to fix this. From this experience I can understand that it is possible for people to be turned off and one of my key tests with any of my decks is getting it to a level where it sounds good on most material most of the time which is not always easy.
It also coincided with the difficulties in getting new releases on vinyl. I tended to buy CDs and listen on the PC rather than on the Hi-Fi.though 12 years is a long time to be unhappy with the performance of your deck.
Well, it's not a Linn so why would it sound the same? Different materials, different springs, no shared parts at all so of course it's going to sound different.
You seemed to be attributing 'pleasing effects' to the overall decoupling arrangement of the Linn, that arrangement shared by the Gyrodec. So if your theory, if that's what it was, was true then one might expect the latter to manifest the same effects, no?
You seemed to be attributing 'pleasing effects' to the overall decoupling arrangement of the Linn, that arrangement shared by the Gyrodec.
Strange choice when the planar 2 and 3 were never all that good and there were things such as Thorens 150, 160, 147, Walker CJ55, Ariston RD80, Heybrook TT2 etc which were MUCH better than the Rega and in fact close to the LP12 in some cases...
...once you lose that vibe, it's difficult to get it back and you can find yourself chasing your tail. I think that's what drives some people to downgrade.