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Rega planar 3 or old lp12

Discussion in 'audio' started by worz, Jun 3, 2021.

  1. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    Speaking of Occam, LP12 managed to convey timing information well from the off, demonstrably as a result of the borrowing of inventive steps from over the 10 years prior.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
  2. Charlie_1

    Charlie_1 pfm Member

    I struggle with that one too.
  3. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig ^'- -'^

    I think it was more chance than judgment. The sprung chassis concept is aimed at isolating the platter/arm from the outside world. Having the motor on the fixed part of the plinth is to isolate the motor noise. The latter in particular is not good for absolute speed stability but creates a pleasing effect nonetheless.
  4. Charlie_1

    Charlie_1 pfm Member

    Good point. I'm no expert but it seems to have been helped along by a better bearing design and also trial and error and a good ear, such as Martin Dalgleish's, although I guess Ivor did a fair bit by himself in the early years. A key element seems to be the managing the vibrations rather than trying to dampen them out but I've never heard anyone at Linn say much in detail. Ivor once told me that very few people really understand the LP12. No doubt that will annoy many folks here but I suspect it was this approach that he was referring to. Has anyone here heard anything similar?
  5. Charlie_1

    Charlie_1 pfm Member

    Makes sense to me.
  6. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    Yes, the first interview that Gramophone did with Ivor back in the '70s included his mention of the managing of vibrations, as they can't simply be eliminated.

    Edgar Villchur mentioned the same thing the decade before.
    Charlie_1 likes this.
  7. w00fer

    w00fer pfm Member

    Am I right in thinking that the Gyrodec has the same arrangement - platter and arm decoupled/suspended and motor not? Yet Gyrodec lacks the Linn's 'colourations'?
  8. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig ^'- -'^

    Well, it's not a Linn so why would it sound the same? Different materials, different springs, no shared parts at all so of course it's going to sound different.
  9. cre009

    cre009 pfm Member

    No - the wow and flutter measurements do have meaning and audible speed fluctuations should show up as relatively poor results.

    Further to that any speed fluctuations that are audible in normal playback should also be audible as pitch variations when playing a continuous single tone from a well cantered test record.

    I am aware of the upside down pendulum theory touted by a few people including Richard Dunn (RIP) and I feel that I am able to dismiss that as well. Out of the suspended decks in my collection the Systemdek Transcription would be most prone to an issue with motor/belt pulling due to its very compliant springs/pronounced bounce and I do not get audible speed fluctuations with that one either.

    My view is that the quavering people are hearing is down to something else most of the time and suspect standing waves is the most likely cause though slightly off centered records may be more common than people are aware of. Maybe there are other factors as well but I do not believe speed fluctuations in a well maintained deck should be one of them. A deck with higher resolution or different tonal balance may however make it easier to hear these issues.

    As a hobbyist with 20 working decks I do have an interest in this as a topic. I have had 2 periods with my LP12 where the deck has performed really well for me and it was rare for me to have a record that sounded off. I did have a period from around 2000-12 where I was not happy with the deck and it got to the point where I would go months without playing records. It took a service and cartridge change to fix this. From this experience I can understand that it is possible for people to be turned off and one of my key tests with any of my decks is getting it to a level where it sounds good on most material most of the time which is not always easy.
    torstoi likes this.
  10. wylton

    wylton Naim and Mana member

    I was going to say, a generally sensible post, though 12 years is a long time to be unhappy with the performance of your deck. I do understand though, because I had a general feeling of malaise with my LP12, which resulted in me trying different turntables (Garrard 401/Lenco 88/Michell Hydraulic Reference). The LP12 is upstairs in the office system right now, but I do agree that discontentment can be hard to pin down. I got the LP12 back to spec initially (Kore/Lingo) to make sure that it was working as it should (though it does have a Norton AirPower connected now).
    Mr Pig likes this.
  11. Charlie_1

    Charlie_1 pfm Member

    Thanks cre.
    That's a LOT of record players!
    Just the clarify, I don't hear obvious pitch instability. It's something much more subtle than that. Just a sense of solidity/stability with the Rega, especially the p10, that reminds me of CD.
  12. cre009

    cre009 pfm Member

    It also coincided with the difficulties in getting new releases on vinyl. I tended to buy CDs and listen on the PC rather than on the Hi-Fi.

    My problems started in 96 when my house was burgled and they took all my electronics. I replaced like with like or as similar as was available but the system lost its magic. I then tried upgrading but without real success. I started to use the system a lot less. I had 5 working decks back then but none got me what I was wanting.

    Interest was regained when I wanted to do some digital transfers. Decided to get the LP12 serviced and went for a cartridge change and found that I had some of the magic back.
    wylton and Mr Pig like this.
  13. wylton

    wylton Naim and Mana member

    My issues started when I got back into full time education to get some qualifications & subsequently was working away & was hardly ever at home. Prior to that, I was running LP12/Ittok/Asak/NAC 32/HiCap/Nap 250/Linn Sara's. I used to go home for lunch & would put records on & then more music when I got home from work; once you lose that vibe, it's difficult to get it back and you can find yourself chasing your tail. I think that's what drives some people to downgrade.
    Mr Pig likes this.
  14. w00fer

    w00fer pfm Member

    You seemed to be attributing 'pleasing effects' to the overall decoupling arrangement of the Linn, that arrangement shared by the Gyrodec. So if your theory, if that's what it was, was true then one might expect the latter to manifest the same effects, no?
  15. david ellwood

    david ellwood Kirabosi Kognoscente

    Please don’t try to apply logic to Mr Pigs opinions.

    Linn Bad, Rega good.
  16. Bob Edwards

    Bob Edwards pfm Member

    Possibly! And not to try to speak for Mr. Pig, but I read his posts as speculation based on experience more than trying to offer a theory. If various other TTs showed a similar effect (Heybrook, Systemdek, Michell, etc.) then I think it might be moving towards being a theory.

    For myself, I have no idea what the cause could be, though Mr. Pig's suggestion certainly seems like it is within the realm of reason.
    Miss Ariel and w00fer like this.
  17. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig ^'- -'^

    Well they are both sprung but there the similarity ends. Even if you just changed the type of springs in the LP12 it would change the sound when in fact every structural component in the two decks are different. There really isn't any reason to imply the two should sound the same any more than you could suggest two different cars should drive the same because they both have sprung suspension.

    Using, quite literally, a rubber band to transmit drive between two pulleys which can float freely in three dimensions relative to each other is one fecked up system! Expecting accuracy is curious. The fact that you get anything close to good results delightful. Suggesting it as a good solution, ridiculous! In technical terms anyway.
    Miss Ariel likes this.
  18. Arkless Electronics

    Arkless Electronics Trade: Amp design and repairs.

    Strange choice when the planar 2 and 3 were never all that good and there were things such as Thorens 150, 160, 147, Walker CJ55, Ariston RD80, Heybrook TT2 etc which were MUCH better than the Rega and in fact close to the LP12 in some cases...
    linnfomaniac83 and Miss Ariel like this.
  19. Ian Austen

    Ian Austen pfm Member

    Wow - some of those are a blast from the past - completely forgotten about Walker...

    Can't help thinking that the OP is more interested in how a modern P2/3 now sounds and not a vintage one...
    Mr Pig likes this.
  20. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig ^'- -'^

    I'm sure you are correct. Considered it myself. Truly musical Hi-Fi systems are rare and modern kit isn't getting better.
    mjkelshaw likes this.

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