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Rega planar 3 or old lp12

Discussion in 'audio' started by worz, Jun 3, 2021.

  1. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig ^'- -'^

    Not really. Is the chassis of the deck covered? No. Is the arm covered? Not really.

    Anyone who's ever dusted their hi-fi rack will tell you that the section of shelf under a component gets just as dusty as the area around it. Hanging a bit of bent plastic over the top of your arm won't stop it getting dusty. Eventually, very dusty. The P8 has a cover but it does not do the same job as a fully enclosing lid.
     
  2. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    To me a proper lid has sides which offer full protection to arm & cartridge.
     
    Thorn and torstoi like this.
  3. eevo1969

    eevo1969 pfm Member

    The cover displayed on the Rega website is a cover not a lid. I have a bespoke acrylic cover for my Lenco, it’s actually bigger than the deck itself so it’s fully covered but that’s a cover too, a lid for a tt is hinged imo and just short of the top overall dimension of the deck itself.
     
  4. dave charlton

    dave charlton EBLT driven

    The cover looks fine to me, ease of use with adequate protection.
     
    John likes this.
  5. John

    John Fore!

    I’m used to removing my LP12 lid whenever I use it and can get it on and off quite easily without damaging the arm, cartridge or plinth. I like the P8 and P10 minimalist design and was wondering how easy the lid was to remove and replace without damaging anything.
     
  6. b-lilja

    b-lilja pfm Member

    __________
    Great recommendation.

    If you want a change. Totally different TT, much better than Planar 3
     
    linnfomaniac83 likes this.
  7. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig ^'- -'^

    Very. It's very light and just lifts off. There is a little pin that stops it rotating and hitting the arm when it's in place, something other similar covers don't have.
     
  8. Maxbertola

    Maxbertola pfm Member

    I have a P2 because I got back to vinyl as an accompaniment to my main rig and I didn't want to spend much, but if I was seriously into vinyl I'd only buy a suspended subframe (if that is how you call them) TT.
     
  9. Charlie_1

    Charlie_1 pfm Member

    My Rega P2 does do 'something' better than my LP12s. Not to the same extent as the P10 I borrowed, but it still has a more CD-like stable sound which makes a nice change to begin with. Obviously, it's weaker overall and I soon miss an LP12. I assume that's cos the P2 isn't a suspended chassis. I've owned a Radikal too and it's still not the same as a Rega in this respect (isn't the Radikal focussed on macro speed corrections, not fractions of a second?) I guess something like a Technics would take the pitch (?) stability aspect up another notch or two.
     
  10. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig ^'- -'^

    Yes, it's the speed stability. The Linn has a 'waver' to the speed which actually seems to enhance some music but totally mucks up other tracks. It's inherent to the design. I love it and hate it at the same time! ;0)
     
  11. cre009

    cre009 pfm Member

    I know you keep pushing this speed stability stuff and I am still not convinced though out of personal interest it is something I am trying to check.

    From what I have read the LP12 usually has good wow and flutter figures which is the common measure of speed instability. I have some Hi-Fi Choice mags from the 80's and they always regarded speed as pretty good. The Rega's on the other hand tended to be a little fast but with some slowing under load.

    Speed instability is generally measured using a fixed 3000 or 3150Hz test signal. Speed instability will show up as pitch variations which can be measured. For example in this thread at the Hoffman forum there is even discussion about a utility that can be downloaded though I have not tried it yet. I am not aware of any kind of speed instability on record decks that will not result in pitch changes.

    https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/wow-and-flutter-measurements.981526/

    If speed stability is an issue and audible during normal playback then it should also be audible on playback of a test record using the above tones which are where speed fluctuations should be most apparent. On my LP12s and most other decks I do not hear any pitch changes.

    It is possible that speed instability could arise out of a deck with problems such as a belt in poor condition or rubbing, bearing or motor issues or detritus on the belt drive path and these could cause a deck to degrade over time.

    The wow and flutter measurement itself can be a bit controversial for example here but most decks give good figures out of the box.

    https://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/wow-and-flutter-some-figures.320629/

    There are 2 other situations which could lead to a perception of speed instability that I am aware of.

    1. Room reflections causing standing waves that can lead to quavering that will be particularly noticeable during the fade out of a track where there is a sustained note. I get this quite a lot because I have a small listening room with uncovered hard walls. For testing purposes these standing waves could be eliminated by using head phones or transferring a digital copy to PC.

    2. Off centered and or warped records.

    What I suspect is that these may vary between decks depending on the relative clarity of the deck and the tonal frequency response of the deck/arm/cartridge
     
    Miss Ariel and torstoi like this.
  12. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig ^'- -'^

    I can only guess at what is going on but I owned LP12s for decades and heard the same thing on all of them. Pretty much any deck with the motor and bearing fixed to the same thing sounded better. Well, it might have worse speed stability of a different kind but it didn't sound like a Linn.

    And it's not obvious or even audible on all records but certain records just sound wrong. Drunken. It was the very first thing that struck me about the RP10. Tonal stability much better than anything I've heard out of an LP12. Not that you need to go that far. A Lenco beats it as well. I'm sure that anyone who has a direct drive also knows exactly what I'm talking about.

    Technically, it is a criticism I suppose but I don't see it that way. I think it may be part of the reason the LP12 sounds as engaging as it does. It may be something that actually enhances the sense of rhythm on a lot of music. How exactly, I don't know but anyone who's owned a Linn knows they have a sense of flow to them that's pretty hard to beat. You want to talk about wow and flutter? Digital is laughing in your face with paper spec to bury your precious record player. But if you own a Linn you know your CD player doesn't connect and convey rhythm in the same way. Why not? How can it sound better if it's not better? Something is going on?

    Just as harmonic distortion can enhance ones perception of notes, so can I believe certain kinds of artifacts in speed stability enhance perception of rhythm. Counter intuitive as that may seem.

    On some records. Others just sound fecked! :0)
     
  13. Charlie_1

    Charlie_1 pfm Member

    I don't think I notice it as much as Mr P, or else it doesn't bother me as much.

    I'm not convinced by the idea that it enhances some music either but don't really have anything firm to argue against. I have my own ideas why the LP12 is more engaging but it's besides the point really and is just one more opinion to add to the mix.
     
    Miss Ariel likes this.
  14. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig ^'- -'^

    I think it's true that some people are more sensitive to pitch and timing variations. I think I am. My daughter is a pretty good sax player but can't tell which notes are off without a tuner. I can.

    I found some music on the LP12 just unlistenable. I had to take it off.
     
    Miss Ariel likes this.
  15. david ellwood

    david ellwood Kirabosi Kognoscente

    Pig, you’re really digging a hole for yourself, when you inevitably cave in and buy another LP12.
     
    Paul Mc, Woodface and Miss Ariel like this.
  16. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    Should be 2, as Nirvana introduced 5 'black' chassis bolts with improved tolerance head mating faces (3 spring hangars plus 2 top plate anchors).
     
  17. Charlie_1

    Charlie_1 pfm Member

    Yeah, I think it’s the overall timing that’s impacted, not how well synchronised the musicians are with one another which I find is one of the LP12 core strengths and probably why it’s so good rhythmically.
     
  18. Charlie_1

    Charlie_1 pfm Member

    I wonder if wow and flutter measurements are not granular enough to detect what we’re hearing.
     
  19. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig ^'- -'^

    Yes. I can't think of any source I've heard that communicates the interplay of musicians as well as the LP12. That includes the RP10 and every other turntable I've heard. I'm sure that it's the result of colouration but I don't care. It sounds right.

    Measurements will always be limited unless the resolution exceeds the variations within the subject being measured. For example you could have a ruler with perfect cm markings but the mm ones are all over the place. If all you can see is the cm ones you might conclude the ruler is correct.

    Besides, I've always thought that putting stock in measured speed specification was a bit misguided. We already measure turntables with our hearing, that's what listening to music is. To translate the rotation of the platter into a numerical value and say that's more important makes no sense. Our subjective impression of the timing and pitch information within the music is the only measure the end user needs.
     
    CTank likes this.
  20. david ellwood

    david ellwood Kirabosi Kognoscente

    The idea that the LP12s ability to convey timing information is somehow the result of a colouration is at odds with occam.

    maybe it times better because it’s better at timing?

    maybe this is the result of 50 years of design intention?
     

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