Ortofon's MC Anna and 12" arms

[pure sound]

the reality that the 30-12 sounds superior to most listeners, even when using the 9inch arm.

That's an interesting observation. I didn't even know they'd left provision on the 30-12 to fit a 9" arm. Do SME agree with this view & have they posited an explanation as to why it might be? What changes besides the dimensions of the 2 chassis & the wider displacement of the suspension towers?

 

[Blzebub]

Not at all I am sure the Whest is very good and I love ortofon. I certainly don't think SME are rubbish. Just not the state of the art. I also own a mana table I just don't believe in all this phase 21 nonsense. ATC make quality products that I find a bit hard on the ears but others dont. Only naim are naff.

The evidence suggests a 12" arm is preferably and involves little or no compromise if rigidity is addressed

You need to listen to something before you can have an opinion on how it sounds Bub

Have you even heard the yorke?

Crumbs from the high table.

Of course I haven't heard the Yorke. Do I strike you as the sort of person who would waste their time hunting down a shop demonstration of a Yorke? I can assure you I am not that sort of person.

 

[badger748]

There is no back up in the UK for Simon Yorke.
The main dealer who sold them gave up, SY himself lives in Spain + he is a total grump.
SME are a pleasure to deal with and here in blighty.
I would choose an SME over a Simon Yorke every day of the week.

 

[Blzebub]

He's told us that he has never even heard either a model 30 or 30-12. All this can be summed up in one sentence.

' My opinions are as valid as anyone else's, even if they know a lot more about the subject.'

Why do you care so much? I really don't understand. You've posted yourself that the V12 is less dynamic. Since that is the main criticism of it, why the argument?

 

[F1eng]

I was surprised to see that the A90 has already been discontinued. That didn't last long.

I was too. It turned out it was a limited edition of 500 :-(
The production one was the version with built in headshell (the Xpression)

I ended up getting a refurbished one from the Ortofon factory.

 

[Blzebub]

Watching this video was enough to convince me that I didn't want a Yorke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQrXvYZv1zQ

 

[i_should_coco]

He does talk some crap.

 

[badger748]

Back to the A90 and the Anna,
The Anna uses the technology developed for and with the A90.
When working I'm sure the Anna moves the game on from the A90, however, it is plauged with failures AND the A90 is much better looking. As a pal commented, the Anna looks like a beetle on its back and the lady eyes graphics looks like it was lifted from a 80's T-shirt.

 

[badger748]

Received from Ortofon..........

That is correct MC A90 was a limited edition of 400 units. We have though experienced a high demand on A90 and therefore decided to produce additionally very limited number as we have had spares surplus on stock. These genuine Ortofon cartridges are though without serial numbers as they are manufactured on demand and so say beyond the official 400 units.

These cartridges are naturally backed-up by a guarantee and Repair services.

Repair service Exclusive series
Ortofon MC Windfeld, A90 and Xpression are the exclusive cartridges of very high quality. To support our customers, who have accidentally damaged their cartridges, Ortofon provides a special repair service. Should you have need this service, please contact your local Ortofon Partner.

Best regards
Katarina H. Nielsen
Ortofon A/S

 

[merlin]

That's an interesting observation. I didn't even know they'd left provision on the 30-12 to fit a 9" arm. Do SME agree with this view & have they posited an explanation as to why it might be? What changes besides the dimensions of the 2 chassis & the wider displacement of the suspension towers?

Thicker top plate Guy, that's about it.

Obviously added mass as a result of that and the larger dimensions.

Only too happy to do arm swaps for people if someone would lend me a Series V - it's a ten minute job at worst to change and really easy to demonstrate the differences.

 

[Blzebub]

Received from Ortofon..........

That is correct MC A90 was a limited edition of 400 units. We have though experienced a high demand on A90 and therefore decided to produce additionally very limited number as we have had spares surplus on stock. These genuine Ortofon cartridges are though without serial numbers as they are manufactured on demand and so say beyond the official 400 units.

These cartridges are naturally backed-up by a guarantee and Repair services.

Repair service Exclusive series
Ortofon MC Windfeld, A90 and Xpression are the exclusive cartridges of very high quality. To support our customers, who have accidentally damaged their cartridges, Ortofon provides a special repair service. Should you have need this service, please contact your local Ortofon Partner.

Best regards
Katarina H. Nielsen
Ortofon A/S

Yes, I got one of those direct from Ortofon. If you search the Ortofon website, under "treasure chest". There's a thread somewhere about it.

 

[merlin]

As a pal commented, the Anna looks like a beetle on its back and the lady eyes graphics looks like it was lifted from a 80's T-shirt.

Memories

 

[paskinn]

That's an interesting observation. I didn't even know they'd left provision on the 30-12 to fit a 9" arm. Do SME agree with this view & have they posited an explanation as to why it might be? What changes besides the dimensions of the 2 chassis & the wider displacement of the suspension towers?

The armboard on both the 20-12 and 30-12 is designed so that it can be reversed to use a 9inch arm, using the same cut-out. It's easy. From the start they assumed that some people would use the long chassis version with shorter arms. Their own advertising states that they regard the longer arms as having lower distortion.
As for other changes; well, SME are remarkably slow to boast. I didn't know until recently that, for instance, the armboards on the model 30s are made of coated brass, on the 20 they use aluminium. Even the little suspension rings are made of different material.
The 30-12 is made of thicker plates and has a number of tweaks to the suspension, including a different viscosity of damping fluid. The greater mass and wider stance makes it still more resistant to vibration. Ken Kessler's original review tried both 9inch and 12inch arms on the 30-12, and he said that it was superior to the standard 30 using either. I know he's a bit...well..but everyone I know who has tried this experiment has come to a similar conclusion. As 'Merlin' said, it's easy to demonstrate, and quite striking.
I had planned to try the Dynavectr 507 on the SME, but the company regard that as a special-order for the armboard and want about £1000. So I'l not be able to try that.

 

[Paul R]

Can you expand on that? I'd have thought that the science does suggest that tracking error and a need for bias will be reduced. I haven't seen science yet that supports the idea that 2-3" of extra magnesium tube will have a similar or greater measurable negative impact.

A number of arguments. And I'm more than happy to be wrong.

1. tracking error varies widely across the record. So a 12" at the outer edge has about the same error as a 9" a cm or so in. An easy comparison for a 9" owner to make of the upgrade potential of a 12" therefore is to contrast the beginning and end of the first track of a record.

2. near the nulls the tracking error tends to 0 regardless of length. So a listening test has to be done at the right parts of the record.

3. because the offset angle of a 12" is less than a 9" the same alignment error has a greater effect. Given there is always an error this will tend to reduce the overall tracking error advantage the 12" has.

The 12" advocates tend not to report on the improvement a 12" brings in terms that admit the variance in difference across the record, so I'm inclined to believe that tracking error isn't primarily what they're hearing.

Bias is a whole other question, and one I think is more likely to be relevant. But you wouldn't be looking at Anna and the like if bias levels concerned you.

A thought that occurs is that much modern vinyl is spread over many sides and doesn't venture near the label. So the optimal alignment changes. It might be worth looking at setting up an arm to suit what is actually routinely played by an individual rather than the IEC spec'd limits, or even historical norms.

Paul

 

[paskinn]

I still don't understand why a company like Ortofon would have production/quality issues with either the 90 or Anna. They are surely the oldest cartridge make in the world. What they don't know about cartridges is probably not worth knowing. So is there genuine unreliability or are people just quoting rumours floating around the forums? It's just not what I would expect from Ortofon.

 

[pure sound]

As a pal commented, the Anna looks like a beetle on its back and the lady eyes graphics looks like it was lifted from a 80's T-shirt.

Not dissimilar to the Goldring 'Legacy' MC.

 

[Blzebub]

The armboard on both the 20-12 and 30-12 is designed so that it can be reversed to use a 9inch arm, using the same cut-out. It's easy. From the start they assumed that some people would use the long chassis version with shorter arms. Their own advertising states that they regard the longer arms as having lower distortion.
As for other changes; well, SME are remarkably slow to boast. I didn't know until recently that, for instance, the armboards on the model 30s are made of coated brass, on the 20 they use aluminium. Even the little suspension rings are made of different material.
The 30-12 is made of thicker plates and has a number of tweaks to the suspension, including a different viscosity of damping fluid. The greater mass and wider stance makes it still more resistant to vibration. Ken Kessler's original review tried both 9inch and 12inch arms on the 30-12, and he said that it was superior to the standard 30 using either. I know he's a bit...well..but everyone I know who has tried this experiment has come to a similar conclusion. As 'Merlin' said, it's easy to demonstrate, and quite striking.
I had planned to try the Dynavectr 507 on the SME, but the company regard that as a special-order for the armboard and want about £1000. So I'l not be able to try that.

If you are referring to KK's review in HiFi News, he says:

"a perfectly set up 9 in Series V is so error-free as to be invisible"

He also said that he found it tricky to decide which deck was better.

Do you agree with your own opinion that the V12 is less dynamic?

 

[merlin]

The 12" advocates tend not to report on the improvement a 12" brings in terms that admit the variance in difference across the record, so I'm inclined to believe that tracking error isn't primarily what they're hearing.

Paul

I think that's wrong Paul.

I have said since the start of the thread that what sold me on the 12" option was that there was greater consistency across the side of an LP when playing back the digital archive files that I have been making. Look back through the posts and you will see that was always my main reason for buying the 12.

One other arm I would love to try on the table one day is the Kuzma 4 Point. It's interesting that for all his bias, MF still felt it was a better arm on the Continuum than the Cobra and it's worth remembering it's effective length is 11 inches. To a degree that answers the Continuum question that was raised earlier.

 

[Paul R]

Only too happy to do arm swaps for people if someone would lend me a Series V - it's a ten minute job at worst to change and really easy to demonstrate the differences.

This sounds (!) like something we should pursue in some way.

Paul

 

[Blzebub]

A number of arguments. And I'm more than happy to be wrong.

1. tracking error varies widely across the record. So a 12" at the outer edge has about the same error as a 9" a cm or so in. An easy comparison for a 9" owner to make of the upgrade potential of a 12" therefore is to contrast the beginning and end of the first track of a record.

2. near the nulls the tracking error tends to 0 regardless of length. So a listening test has to be done at the right parts of the record.

3. because the offset angle of a 12" is less than a 9" the same alignment error has a greater effect. Given there is always an error this will tend to reduce the overall tracking error advantage the 12" has.

The 12" advocates tend not to report on the improvement a 12" brings in terms that admit the variance in difference across the record, so I'm inclined to believe that tracking error isn't primarily what they're hearing.

Bias is a whole other question, and one I think is more likely to be relevant. But you wouldn't be looking at Anna and the like if bias levels concerned you.

A thought that occurs is that much modern vinyl is spread over many sides and doesn't venture near the label. So the optimal alignment changes. It might be worth looking at setting up an arm to suit what is actually routinely played by an individual rather than the IEC spec'd limits, or even historical norms.

Paul

Hi Paul.

One of my "torture" records is Wuthering Heights by Kate Bush, the last track on side one of The Kick Inside. When I had an LP12 with Ittok, and later Aro, I found the cartridge I was using would always mistrack. I accumulated three or four copies, because I thought it was a pressing problem at first. But the Series V tracks this record with no problems.