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Ortofon's MC Anna and 12" arms

One issue all of this raises is that of consumer choice by proxy. I imagine, given Bub's day job, that he really doesn't have the time to spend appraising the subtle differences between tonearms, cartridges etc. I meet a good number of people in high flying, high commitment jobs who are similar. They just don't have the time or inclinatiion to go through the process and would rather delegate the choice to a friendly guru, a web forum or indeed the buying guide of a magazine. They'll do this with cars, interior decor, shoes, watches in fact all manner of consumer goods. There's nothing wrong with that. I've no great interest in photography & if I needed another camera I'd be quite happy to act on the recommendations of a knowledgeable friend or a magazine. What I wouldn't then do is to tell everyone that I'd made the best or most correct choice & insist that any other choices would have been less good. Had I been out and tried 5 or 10 of the possible cameras at my price point & chosen one based on its picture quality or facilities based on my own experiences with it & its competitors, that'd be a different story. I'd then feel more comfortable in supporting those opinions.
 
pure sound said:
I do think it's very good of you to indulge your guru's tastes in this way. I'm sure he'll appreciate it whenever he comes to visit. I look forward to reading more of his opinions in future. Which cartridge is he recommending that you buy? Does he also prefer a certain brand of biscuit when he comes or are you retaining some autonomy regarding biscuit choices? Perhaps you have a different guru for biscuits?
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I really don't get the problem with me asking an experienced person for their advice. People do it on forums all the time, in fact it's almost the raison d'etre of hi-fi forums.

You lot are just pissed-off because I've done it off-forum, used a genuine expert, rather than the people who spout off on the internet all the time, and you don't know who it is.
 
No the purpose of forums is willy waving and ruckus raising where every numpty has equal say to every true expert and outnumbers them 1000 to 1 so they get drowned out in the noise

We are all just in a state of disbelief at your statements - no one is asking who the guru is. Your intention has failed. Your track record of gurus isn't inspiring
 
pure sound said:
What I wouldn't then do is to tell everyone that I'd made the best or most correct choice & insist that any other choices would have been less good.
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I haven't done that. I've given the reasons for my choice, and left it at that. The people who are insisting I've made a terrible mistake are merlin & jek, who always do this, hence are ignored, and paskinn who seems overly-attached to his own choice.

If it turns out, in the fullness of time, that I have made a dreadful mistake, I'll switch. But I think that is quite unlikely.
 
merlin said:
I obviously would disagree as all we are reporting is what we find when comparing the arms, as is Pete.
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Hence the entrenchment.

Given that the V-12 shares an almost identical effective mass with the V, there is IME no reason that one cartridge would work better in the V.
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My point entirely. And why Royaloak's question can be (and has been, multiple times...) answered.

It's unlike you to accept something without seeing some evidence and good science behind it Paul. I know Bub is your friend but still.
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The 'science' suggests that the tracking error argument doesn't really fly and that a longer arm will be mechanically inferior to an otherwise similar shorter one.

And I think that Bub's decision making process is as valid or effective as yours or Jek's or Paskinn's or Pete's. Especially as he has used an SME TT for some years. What would be much more interesting is a proper hands on investigation and discussion of Pure Sound's Motus and Purite's GPA.

Paul
 
Paul R said:
The 'science' suggests that the tracking error argument doesn't really fly and that a longer arm will be mechanically inferior to an otherwise similar shorter one.

Paul
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Can you expand on that? I'd have thought that the science does suggest that tracking error and a need for bias will be reduced. I haven't seen science yet that supports the idea that 2-3" of extra magnesium tube will have a similar or greater measurable negative impact.
 
Jek said:
The tower of mana prooves otherwise
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Jek, every single item I own is rubbish according to you, and that includes the Mana. This constant bashing is getting really old. You've been doing it for 6 years, you already know that I take absolutely no notice of you, so why bother continuing with it?
 
Purite Audio said:
It is extremely difficult to hear a really authorative demonstration, two different tables but both fitted with the same arm and cartridge,heard through the same system, very rare.
Keith.
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Exactly. Another voice of reason.

I have no doubt that the 30/12 w/ V12 is an utterly fantastic deck, and as an SME fan it pains me to be having this silly battle, but there are some undeniable compromises involved with any longer arm.
 
Paul R said:
What would be much more interesting is a proper hands on investigation and discussion of Pure Sound's Motus and Purite's GPA.

Paul
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I must try and get you a better recording by placing the record more carefully. I'm surprised by how off centre this pressing is.
 
Paul R said:
The 'science' suggests that the tracking error argument doesn't really fly and that a longer arm will be mechanically inferior to an otherwise similar shorter one.

Paul
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Actually Paul, the science seems to suggest that second harmonic goes from just over the threshold of human detection to just under it - in particular ove the last 30% or so of an LP side.

So from the evidence I have seen since this thread started, the science suggests there could indeed be the sort of audible differences myself and others have reported.

Now no one has brought any evidence to bear that suggests that the V-12 will be in any way audibly compromised compared to the V, either through lack of rigidity, arm resonance or both.

No one is criticizing Jame's (guru's) decision making process nor his personal choice. I am being critical and questioning his (his gurus) baseless claims that he has made the superior one because of claims of dynamic compression and other failings. I'd refer you to Guy's salient post. James is I presume trolling.
 
merlin said:
No one is criticizing Jame's (guru's) decision making process nor his personal choice. I am being critical and questioning his (his gurus) baseless claims that he has made the superior one because of claims of dynamic compression and other failings.
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Yes you are, you've spent umpteen pages doing just that! Do you just ignore cognitive dissonance?

Anyway, just a few more hours now, and my huge mistake will have arrived.
 
Not at all I am sure the Whest is very good and I love ortofon. I certainly don't think SME are rubbish. Just not the state of the art. I also own a mana table I just don't believe in all this phase 21 nonsense. ATC make quality products that I find a bit hard on the ears but others dont. Only naim are naff.

The evidence suggests a 12" arm is preferably and involves little or no compromise if rigidity is addressed

You need to listen to something before you can have an opinion on how it sounds Bub

Have you even heard the yorke?
 
Paul R said:
Hence the entrenchment.


.

And I think that Bub's decision making process is as valid or effective as yours or Jek's or Paskinn's or Pete's. Especially as he has used an SME TT for some years.
Paul
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He's told us that he has never even heard either a model 30 or 30-12. All this can be summed up in one sentence.

' My opinions are as valid as anyone else's, even if they know a lot more about the subject.'
 
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