Ortofon's MC Anna and 12" arms

[Paul R]

FWIW I consider anyone hopelessly entrenched on either side to not even understand the question. It actually all hinges on context, e.g. high compliance cart, pick the lighter 9 inch arm, real low-compliance job like the Anna go 12" every time. There's just no reason not to as if you can afford the Anna you can afford the deck, arm and space too, and it is the better match of the two.

The hopeless entrenchment would appear to be Paskinn, Merlin, Jek.

The SME choice for the Anna isn't the V12, it's the M2-12R. The V12 is a 12" arm with a relatively low effective mass. The Anna is clearly aimed at a market that likes a little retro foo and a heavy chromy arm with a bend is the most suitable match.

Bub's A90, OTOH, is much more about technical performance, and so the SME V is the obvious choice.

(The tracking error argument for the superiority of the 12" must be spurious, the reports of the sound don't fit a scenario where the distortion is continuously varying and where the 9" is better than the worst of the 12" over much of the side.)

PS The thing that baffles me somewhat is why SME don't make a 10" or 10.5" Series V. They made / make 10" versions of the 30xx and M (though in many ways the latter is a fudge as the 10" M2 is only actually 9mm or so longer than the 9"! They owe me half an inch as my M2-10 is only actually an M2-9.4"!).

I suspect that the 309 and 310 share the raw arm tube casting, and this then defines the lengths they make for the M2-9 and M2-10. A V-10 would involve a custom arm tube, which would make it as expensive as a V-12 but to no end.

Paul

 

[merlin]

The hopeless entrenchment would appear to be Paskinn, Merlin, Jek.

I obviously would disagree as all we are reporting is what we find when comparing the arms, as is Pete.

Given that the V-12 shares an almost identical effective mass with the V, there is IME no reason that one cartridge would work better in the V. The reason this discussion continues unabated on page whatever is that your friend continues to make claims for "dynamic compression" without ever hearing the item in question or indeed offering up any evidence whatsoever to back his statements up.

It's unlike you to accept something without seeing some evidence and good science behind it Paul. I know Bub is your friend but still.

 

[Tony L]

The SME choice for the Anna isn't the V12, it's the M2-12R. The V12 is a 12" arm with a relatively low effective mass. The Anna is clearly aimed at a market that likes a little retro foo and a heavy chromy arm with a bend is the most suitable match.

Agreed, to a degree at least (as the V-12 is fine on paper). I was simply picking the best of the two options on the table and pointing out that between the V and the V-12 the latter is the better choice. If looking elsewhere one shouldn't overlook Ortofon's own arms, the Thomas Schick and, if cost is no object, things like the 12" Ikeda from Japan either.

The V-12 will still be perfectly fine though. It would be easy enough to get arm resonance of that combo well into the middle of the safe zone. It works out somewhere around 10Hz or so by my calculations, which is fine (assuming a gram for the bolts).

 

[Jek]

Given bubs prior choice of guru and where that ended up then as a method this lacks all credibility. Also where did that guru get his knowledge? It could well be the shop dems that bub decries! Reviews are no way to choose either as they are largely nonsense. All bub has done as already pointed out is buy a deck that suits his guru. The only way to make a rational choice is to listen yourself in as rational a manner as possible. Bub bucks the trend here. He doesnt trust his own judgement so needs external validation from reviews, gurus and endorsements

 

[Purité Audio]

It is extremely difficult to hear a really authorative demonstration, two different tables but both fitted with the same arm and cartridge,heard through the same system, very rare.
Keith.

 

[pure sound]

Bub's A90, OTOH, is much more about technical performance, and so the SME V is the obvious choice.


Paul

Given that the V-12 has an effective mass of 12g (cf the 11g of the V) I'd say that either would work well from a mass/compliance perspective. Both result in an arm/cartridge resonance of ~9Hz. The V-12 would give less tracking error & hence distortion, it's just a question of whether anyone can produce any evidence to suggest that the additional 2-3" of magnesium tube results in significant dynamic compression. I won't hold my breath waiting for that data!

Presumably the guru has those measurements?

I was surprised to see that the A90 has already been discontinued. That didn't last long.

 

[paskinn]

I haven't misquoted you. Post 4 here:

http://www.hificritic.com/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=582

Other people have in fact said what I stated.

Anyway, we have made our choices.

Again, you ignore 95% of what I said (which was that I thought the 12inch arm was clearly superior.) And since then, quite a while ago, I have been able to compare with parallel trackers and the dynamics of the longer arms seems about right.. It is experience which determines my views on this. In fact, my real preference is for parallel trackers, but I haven't the guts.....no doubt you can find some rare cartridge which works better in the 9 inch arm, but I don't know what it it. Even my Shure 97ed works fine in the long arm, as does an old grado gold (I've used both in shorter arms too).
I'm told the 10inch arms only sell well in south east asia. And I think the reason for the lack of a 10inch Five is difficulty in casting The 12 inch arm has two sections. It's probably not worth adding that complexity just for an extra inch.
Oddly enough I recently bought a Dynavector 507 11 (thanks Keith). the first version of that was about ten inches. But the mark 11 is down to nine inches. And that's a Japanese arm, so Dynavector presumably know the demands of their own market. Can't say what it sounds like, as all I've done is look at it. Great looking arm, in a Tonka Toy sort of way. I own a number of 9 inch arms, so I don't see myself as 'entrenched' in this.

 

[pure sound]

It is extremely difficult to hear a really authorative demonstration, two different tables but both fitted with the same arm and cartridge,heard through the same system, very rare.
Keith.

You can certainly do it with SME arms at Definitive although it'll be on a Kuzma XL rather than an SME TT. Doubtless he could also do a 30-12 and a 30-2 side by side.

 

[Jek]

One only has to observe the shining edifice to folly provided by Bubs prior guru to see the limitations of this approach.

I would agree - if you compare 9" v longer arm v parallel tracker its clear the 9" arm is doing some things less right

 

[badger748]

I was surprised to see that the A90 has already been discontinued. That didn't last long.

It didn't last long because it was only ever going to be made to a limited number.
Ortofon reached that (although they did do a few more "secretly") and thus production stopped.

It was never intended as a volume or continuous model.

Due to it's limited production, yes it didn't last long, mainly because people (like me, Bub, etc) bought it !

 

[pure sound]

James' last "guru' was John Watson of Mana fame,

I briefly experienced a couple of his Mana demonstrations at HiFi shows. I really can't imagine why anyone would have taken any notice of him at all. Probably the worst sounding demonstrations I've encountered in nearly 30 years worth of visiting & participating in HiFi shows.

 

[badger748]

The Anna (going back to the OP) isn't a limited run, and has sold poorly, and has been plagued with suspension failures.

 

[Purité Audio]

Given that the V-12 has an effective mass of 12g (cf the 11g of the V) I'd say that either would work well from a mass/compliance perspective. Both result in an arm/cartridge resonance of ~9Hz. The V-12 would give less tracking error & hence distortion, it's just a question of whether anyone can produce any evidence to suggest that the additional 2-3" of magnesium tube results in significant dynamic compression. I won't hold my breath waiting for that data!

Presumably the guru has those measurements?

I was surprised to see that the A90 has already been discontinued. That didn't last long.

We could do it here if you would let me have a Motus!
KR Keith.

 

[Purité Audio]

But your apparent preference for speakers means you effectively speak a different language.

The GPA Monaco is the only sane choice for a modern expensive turntable. They actually have a cogent philosophy. Obviously to be teamed with an SME arm...

Paul

What a sensible, 'Guru' like post.
Keith.

 

[pure sound]

The Anna (going back to the OP) isn't a limited run, and has sold poorly, and has been plagued with suspension failures.

I've a friend who's an Ortofon agent in the US. I gather the A90 also had a somewhat chequered history in that regard (certainly in his experience).

 

[badger748]

I think the issue with the A90 was that a lot of people just didn't like how it sounded !
It really polarised opinions - some absolutely loved it, some hated it.

 

[paskinn]

I know this thread has been too long, and argumentative. But a very experienced friend said to me yesterday that he thought PFM had become the more stimulating of the forums. As always, we can disagree about that. But the more issues that get aired, and in particular, the wider the range of subjects, the better a forum probably is. Especially if 'debate' goes beyond the superficial. Once I see similar debate on esoteric stuff like horns and single-ended amps, I'l feel sure pfm is moving well beyond the old 'Linn/Naim' stuff, although I hasten to add, that is not a criticism of either brand. more a plea for a wide view of the audio world, including the fringes (fringes are the most fun.)

 

[merlin]

I briefly experienced a couple of his Mana demonstrations at HiFi shows. I really can't imagine why anyone would have taken any notice of him at all. Probably the worst sounding demonstrations I've encountered in nearly 30 years worth of visiting & participating in HiFi shows.

Well to be fair he was half deaf Guy.

It always struck me as the cult to end all cults. It comes down to this "choice vs happiness" question that was raised in another thread. Not having to make choices does lead to happiness.

A clear path avoids most choice. People questioning the path therefore threaten people's very happiness and some react badly to that prospect.

I'm all for making my own choices and exploring all avenues. I suppose that must mean I'm miserable as sin

 

[pure sound]

I think the issue with the A90 was that a lot of people just didn't like how it sounded !
It really polarised opinions - some absolutely loved it, some hated it.

Some of their cartridges can give a somewhat clinical presentation. I quite liked a Cadenza Black I tried but haven't really got on with any of the more 'exotic' ones. Still, they also continue to make various SPU's as an enjoyable alternative.

 

[Jek]

Better to be unhappy like Socrates than happy like a pig rolling in muck

The unexamined life is not worth living IMHO so question everything and trust nothing