Ortofon's MC Anna and 12" arms

[paskinn]

Slightly off theme, but only a little, a friend has recently adapted his SME 10 to take a 12inch arm. Not so difficult, the armboard was replaced by one made of thick MDF, but extended further out from the deck (as with the old Thorens 124). Painted black of course.
He uses an SME v12 arm and says it sounds very good indeed. I hope to hear the modification for myself before too long.
SME would not approve; but so what. The mod is fully reversible.

 

[Blzebub]

Some of us are looking for the most natural sound possible.

So why select a cartridge you know to be inaccurate?

 

[Mike Reed]

However, I find that 12inch arms (in general, not just the V12) sound slightly more 'relaxed', less obviously dynamic than the same arm at 9inch. That could be due to the moment of inertia I suppose. I consistently prefer the longer arms, but, as always, its a matter of personal taste. I somehow doubt that the differences can all be explained by slight changes in tracking distortion.

These are also my (limited) findings, but I believe that the reduction in tracing distortion is a major element; other than that, the different design profiles, eff. mass and their effect on the bearing may well have an influence.

You say relaxed; I say surefooted. You say dynamic (of the shorter arms), but 'edgy', 'forward' or 'up-front'' could be used as comparative adjectives. I rather think, based only on my own conversion, that the surefootedness, or relaxation, only gives an impression of a reduction in dynamics.

We sing from the same hymn-book, but although I didn't fully appreciate my 3012 on a 401 in 1970 (perceptions were different then and cart's were in their infancy), I certainly wouldn't revert to a 9" nowadays.

 

[GT]

So why select a cartridge you know to be inaccurate?

Who said the cartridge was inaccurate?

 

[Jek]

Has anyone compared the Anna and the a90?

 

[Blzebub]

Who said the cartridge was inaccurate?

I give in. Warm means accurate. As you were.

 

[Blzebub]

Has anyone compared the Anna and the a90?

Yes. James Henriot switched from A90 to Anna. He doesn't post here.

 

[Blzebub]

These are also my (limited) findings, but I believe that the reduction in tracing distortion is a major element; other than that, the different design profiles, eff. mass and their effect on the bearing may well have an influence.

You say relaxed; I say surefooted. You say dynamic (of the shorter arms), but 'edgy', 'forward' or 'up-front'' could be used as comparative adjectives. I rather think, based only on my own conversion, that the surefootedness, or relaxation, only gives an impression of a reduction in dynamics.

I don't hear any tracking distortion with a 9" arm. One description I heard recently of the 12" SME arm is "slow and lifeless".

 

[Tony L]

Just curious if anyone has experience with this cartridge in both 9 and 12" arms. Seems like 16g, 12" inches from the pivot may be too high a moment of inertia. Wondering if it might work better in a 9"

Just had a look at the specs and the Anna is very low compliance (9µm/mN) and weighs 16g, so you could get away with an arm with anything up to about 24g effective mass and keep the resonance in the safe zone. I can produce charts if need be!

 

[Joe Hutch]

Just had a look at the specs and the Anna is very low compliance (9µm/mN) and weighs 16g, so you could get away with an arm with anything up to about 24g effective mass and keep the resonance in the safe zone. I can produce charts if need be!

Now don't go polluting a perfectly good thread with facts. It just lowers the tone (no pun intended).

 

[Tony L]

One description I heard recently of the 12" SME arm is "slow and lifeless".

Unlike you to believe scuttlebutt relating to SME!

FWIW 12" arms do reduce tracking distortion significantly, it's why SME and others make them. It's just physics and easily backed up with numbers (just google it). The only reason not to use one is price, size (deck footprint) and cartridge compliance as they are obviously a bit heavier. To be honest I regret not building a plinth large enough to take one as I rather fancy a M2-12R.

 

[flatpopely]

Unlike you to believe scuttlebutt relating to SME!

FWIW 12" arms do reduce tracking distortion significantly, it's why SME and others make them. It's just physics and easily backed up with numbers (just google it). The only reason not to use one is price, size (deck footprint) and cartridge compliance as they are obviously a bit heavier. To be honest I regret not building a plinth large enough to take one as I rather fancy a M2-12R.

It's in the shopping basket.

 

[Blzebub]

Unlike you to believe scuttlebutt relating to SME!

FWIW 12" arms do reduce tracking distortion significantly, it's why SME and others make them. It's just physics and easily backed up with numbers (just google it). The only reason not to use one is price, size (deck footprint) and cartridge compliance as they are obviously a bit heavier. To be honest I regret not building a plinth large enough to take one as I rather fancy a M2-12R.

I don't know who "scuttlebutt" is, the source I have is reliable.

Yes I know the "physics". It's geometry, but hey.

Footprint is an obvious reason not to have one, but there are other reasons. Why not a 24", or a 36", etc?

 

[paskinn]

The sheer range of opinions never ceases to surprise me. The 12inch SMEs are smoother, but 'slow and lifeless'...that's just unobservant.
The debate about 12inch arms and lower tracking distortion can be checked pretty easily. While distortion will be lower if set-up is accurate, even a minor deviation will produce higher distortion than a well set-up nine inch.
So, one rainy, dull, afternoon, just slightly (slightly) misadjust a 12inch arm...then observe the change in sound. I think you will find that much of the smoothness that these longer arms produce is still present. It is this that makes me suspect that tracking distortion is just one of the factors. Other candidates include different loading on the bearings (longer lever) and (possibly?) a longer arm being better able to absorb stray vibration. In the case of a 301/401 the arm mounting is also further from the motor. Some, or all, of these things could be factors. Just to make life more complicated, the longer SME fives are not a single casting (as the 9inches are). They use thinner magnesium walls and a two-piece tube, press fitted. Plenty of variables.

 

[Blzebub]

The sheer range of opinions never ceases to surprise me. The 12inch SMEs are smoother, but 'slow and lifeless'...that's just silly (honestly, it is, even in this world of opinions).
The debate about 12inch arms and lower tracking distortion can be checked pretty easily. While distortion will be lower if set-up is accurate, even a minor deviation will produce higher distortion than a well set-up nine inch.
So, one rainy, dull, afternoon, just slightly (slightly) misadjust a 12inch arm...then observe the change in sound. I think you will find that much of the smoothness that these longer arms produce is still present. It is this that makes me suspect that tracking distortion is just one of the factors. Other candidates include different loading on the bearings (longer lever) and (possibly?) a longer arm being better able to absorb stray vibration. In the case of a 301/401 the arm mounting is also further from the motor. Some, or all, of these things could be factors.

People always defend their choices. I do it, everyone does it. The person who I am quoting knows his onions, and doesn't have an axe to grind on this topic. The upside of a longer arm is reduced tracking error. If you can actually hear tracking error with a 9", then that is a good thing for you. But there is a downside, and that is manifest as dynamic compression. If there was no downside, we would be seeing 24", 36", 48", etc. tonearms.

It's all a compromise, and you choose your own compromise. I like dynamics, and can't hear tracking error in a 9" arm, so I choose a 9". You like smoothness, you pick a 12".

I did some research before ordering my new turntable, and chose the 30/2 over the 30/12 for several good reasons.

 

[Tony L]

So, one rainy, dull, afternoon, just slightly (slightly) misadjust a 12inch arm...then observe the change in sound. I think you will find that much of the smoothness that these longer arms produce is still present. It is this that makes me suspect that tracking distortion is just one of the factors.

I suspect a key factor is reduced influence of skating forces - the twisting force placed on the stylus assembly is smaller due to the more gentle offset angle. As ever, no absolutes, but given a fairly low compliance cart I'd go 12" every time assuming cost or space were not overriding factors.

 

[Markus S]

Bub, 30?

 

[paskinn]

.

I did some research before ordering my new turntable, and chose the 30/2 over the 30/12 for several good reasons.

Fine, and we all make our choices based on our tastes. But I have owned both the standard 30 and the 30-12, and used both over thousands of hours. ...whatever research you did , it didn't include the reality that the 30-12 sounds superior to most listeners, even when using the 9inch arm. Otherwise I wouldn't have upgraded . I didn't want to spend the extra money.
BTW: I am a little puzzled that you are a keen supporter of SME and yet seem to assume that they didn't know what they were doing in making a new deck with 12inch arm.
Perhaps you should have told them they had it all wrong, indeed had been wrong for the past fifty years in offering 12inch arms.

 

[Blzebub]

Fine, and we all make our choices based on our tastes. But I have owned both the standard 30 and the 30-12, and used both over thousands of hours. ...whatever research you did , it didn't include the reality that the 30-12 sounds superior even when using the 9inch arm. Otherwise I wouldn't have upgraded . I didn't want to spend the extra money.
BTW: I am a little puzzled that you are a keen supporter of SME and yet seem to assume that they didn't know what they were doing in making a new deck with 12inch arm. Perhaps you should have told them they had it all wrong. Foolish SME.

Er, OK. Your use of "reality" instead of "opinion" is interesting.

But I don't really want to get into a big ding-dong about this. Goodnight.

 

[pure sound]

I suspect a key factor is reduced influence of skating forces - the twisting force placed on the stylus assembly is smaller due to the more gentle offset angle. As ever, no absolutes, but given a fairly low compliance cart I'd go 12" every time assuming cost or space were not overriding factors.

This. Not tracking error shortcomings but the effect of the amount of bias needed being reduced.