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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+16)?

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Seanm said:
gassor it's the same strategy, but a different stage, and not really that different. There is still the likelihood that there is no parliamentary majority for a 2nd ref.

And this business about Labour putting party interests first just like the Tories...In a 2 party system that is the default position, so really you have to ask what it means in each case. In the case of Labour, party interests are, IMO of course, fairly closely aligned with some kind of national interest: reform, redistribution etc., Brexit or no Brexit. In the case of the Tories, pursuing party interests involves setting fire to the country. I think it's a significant difference. In the latter case I think any sensible Tory really ought to be thinking in terms of destroying the party instead.
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Sean, do you really think Corbyn wants a second ref or would he just prefer to leave as he has indicated through his criticism of the EU for many years? The 'strategy' was just an effort to keep the party from getting restless. Remember the 6 tests and how they kicked into the long grass when that suited him. McDonnell said the party have got to listen and deal with the issues that have caused the split and this is part of that response.
 
Stunsworth said:
It may not be clear cut that there’s going to be a referendum. According to the PLP any referendum would need to have a “credible” leave option and a remain option. What if May can’t come up with a credible leave option?
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The main problem is that there might not be a majority in Parliament for any second referendum. Let's see.
 
gassor said:
Sean, do you really think Corbyn wants a second ref or would he just prefer to leave as he has indicated through his criticism of the EU for many years? The strategy was just an effort to keep the party from getting restless. Remember the 6 tests and how they kicked into the long grass when that suited him. McDonnell said the party have got to listen and deal with the issues that have caused the split and this is part of that response.
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It doesn't matter what he really wants, because he's not a feudal baron or the boss of a start up, but the leader of a political party. I think as a democrat he is ambivalent at best about the idea of a 2nd ref. But as leader what he wants, like every party leader ever, is to maintain his electoral alliance and his parliamentary alliance so that he can form a government and pursue his party's policies/revel in personal power (delete according to preference). That has involved exhausting every possible means of making a sane (yes I know) Brexit work and it looks like, yep, they're exhausted: so now (or soon) it means pushing for a 2nd referendum. I have my doubts as to whether 1) it will make it through parliament and 2) it will produce the result Remainers want, but we do indeed seem to be at the end of the rope.
 
gassor said:
Corbyn has been criticising the Tories for putting their party above the interests of the country. But the fact he does the same is OK, it's on the basis of electoral logic y'see. Only now (as of today) he is willing to reconsider that strategy and go for a second ref. Putting the country first finally? No, just trying to stop his party from rupturing wide open. He's a man of principle y'see?
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As I said upstream.
 
Vinniemac said:
Groan. Am I the only Remainer here who *doesn’t* want a second ref?
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Nope, I don't want one either. There is absolutely no guarantee that the result would go the way you or I want it. It would be too close to be declared "the will of the people" just as the first one wasn't clear enough. And, tbh, Brexit will fester and dominate for years to come whether we stay in, drop out softly or crash out. The genie is out of the bottle and the country is split... it won't come back together for a long long time.
 
Seanm said:
It doesn't matter what he really wants, because he's not a feudal baron or the boss of a start up, but the leader of a political party. I think as a democrat he is ambivalent at best about the idea of a 2nd ref.
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So, not a democrat.
 
wyjsar said:
Nope, I don't want one either. There is absolutely no guarantee that the result would go the way you or I want it. It would be too close to be declared "the will of the people" just as the first one wasn't clear enough. And, tbh, Brexit will fester and dominate for years to come whether we stay in, drop out softly or crash out. The genie is out of the bottle and the country is split... it won't come back together for a long long time.
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This. Plus, I want MPs to, you know, do their effing jobs.
 
wyjsar said:
Nope, I don't want one either. There is absolutely no guarantee that the result would go the way you or I want it. It would be too close to be declared "the will of the people" just as the first one wasn't clear enough. And, tbh, Brexit will fester and dominate for years to come whether we stay in, drop out softly or crash out. The genie is out of the bottle and the country is split... it won't come back together for a long long time.
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I want one. It won't be as close as the first. You know that thing where people change their vote at the last minute? Leavers will go into the ballot booth, then go...shit, most of that stuff remain said would happen is happening. I'm stuffing my family. My kids won't talk to me. Remain will take it with a sizeable majority.

AND, remainers are bothered this time and will turn out.
As an indication 750k last march in London, the pro brexit march was in the hundreds wasn't it?

And if not, well at least its an informed vote...
 
An even bigger day if this is true...

"Robert Peston‏Verified account @Peston
.@theresa_may is set to guarantee MPs a binding vote on whether to take no-deal Brexit off table if her own reworked Brexit deal isn’t approved by 12 March. This is huge shift by PM. It makes Brexit delay much more likely https://www.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2285779835080082/ …
10:00 PM - 25 Feb 2019"

And look who's out celebrating tonight...

D0Rs1gyXgAQnZjJ.jpg
 
" TELL THEM AGAIN!" is a very powerful slogan so I would not count my chickens. Having said that as fiddledidee says 'at least its an informed vote.' Besides I look forward to plenty of of frothing at the mouth and, hopefully, having a stroke from the leave hardcore.
 
MVV said:
" TELL THEM AGAIN!" is a very powerful slogan so I would not count my chickens. Having said that as fiddledadee says 'at least its an informed vote.'.
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Remain should go with “Bored with Brexit? Fed up trying to understand tariffs, non-tariff barriers, free trade agreements, and all that other mind-numbingly tedious stuff? Vote Remain TO MAKE IT ALL STOP”. Or words to that effect.

God I hope this doesn’t happen.
 
Vinniemac said:
Remain should go with “Bored with Brexit? Fed up trying to understand tariffs, non-tariff barriers, free trade agreements, and all that other mind-numbingly tedious stuff? Vote Remain TO MAKE IT ALL STOP”. Or words to that effect.

God I hope this doesn’t happen.
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Pretty good. BORED WITH BREXIT?- Make it stop!
 
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