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Next Labour Leader II

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ks.234 said:
Just because Corbyn wasn’t Remain after the referendum does not mean his position was unclear. I happen to agree that Labour should have stood for Remain, but that’s irrelevant to the question of clarity.

The way you link Brexit and Brexit voters with racism, fascism is I’m afraid wrong on several levels and one one of the reasons that Remain failed so miserably. The way to challenge the Tories was by presenting a united front, but the Lib Dem’s and the constant centrist whinging put paid to that.
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Were the Lib Dem’s that much of a factor?
 
Woodface said:
You are aware that press circulation or RW titles is down by two thirds compared to the 90s, they may well be more hostile but there is less of it by volume. Yes, I know about social media but the delivery is very different & arguably less effective. I’ve just come back from a media conference on this very subject; I go to about four of these a year, lots of experts present
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Were these guys there:

https://reutersinstitute.politics.o...e-news-and-media-use-2019-uk-general-election

49524295013_a7088c1114_h.jpg
 
Seanm said:
Were these guys there:

https://reutersinstitute.politics.o...e-news-and-media-use-2019-uk-general-election
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Don't underestimate the sharp decline in union membership too, they did a lot of work to help to counter the right wing bile. It should be the target of the TUC to grow total membership by a million. That means fighting for recognition in places like Amazon etc where the TUs have been shying away. Incidentally it was Unite that won recognition at EasyJet so it's doable but it means taking on the anti TU laws.
 
ks.234 said:
Just because Corbyn wasn’t Remain after the referendum does not mean his position was unclear. I happen to agree that Labour should have stood for Remain, but that’s irrelevant to the question of clarity.
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The issue wasn’t in the clarity. I understood what they were trying to do. It was the cowardice in not taking a moral stand. It was the worst kind of evasive fence-sitting focus-group politics.

ks.234 said:
The way you link Brexit and Brexit voters with racism, fascism is I’m afraid wrong on several levels and one one of the reasons that Remain failed so miserably.
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Are you seriously arguing that UKIP, Leave.Eu, the right-wing tabloids and the hard-right factions within the Tory Party were not channeling and stirring up the ugliest imaginable racism, xenophobia and ethnic nationalism? Much of it was a direct ^c ^v from Goebbels FFS! Labour’s main problem is it found it had rather too much of that mindset on its own benches and in constituencies and capitulated rather than challenged. At that point my respect was gone.

For many of us it doesn’t matter what they do now, they’ve lost folk like me for good. I’ll waste my vote on the Greens or Lib Dems from now on.
 
thebigfredc said:
"Dreadful mess'?

Well everything seems ok for the moment at least. No shortages of anything so far despite the doom mongers. The UK economy growing 3 times faster than Germany's. I realise we are probably at the warm up before the game commences but at least, thanks to Johnson, we know which team we are on and who's in it.

Ray
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It figures that you'd be a supporter of Johnson the racist. There was 0% growth in the last quarter. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51459257

Jack
 
:)

Voting record:

87, 92 Kinnock
97, 2001, 2005 Blair
2010, 2015 Cameron
2019 Johnson

So 5-4 to labour so far.

Also member of a Trade Union.
 
Tony L said:
The issue wasn’t in the clarity. I understood what they were trying to do. It was the cowardice in not taking a moral stand. It was the worst kind of evasive fence-sitting focus-group politics.



Are you seriously arguing that UKIP, the right-wing tabloids and the hard-right factions within the Tory Party were not channeling and stirring up the ugliest imaginable racism, xenophobia and ethnic nationalism? Much of it was a direct ^c ^v from Goebbels FFS! Labour’s main problem is it found it had rather too much of that mindset on its own benches and in constituencies and capitulated rather than challenged. At that point my respect was gone.

For many of us it doesn’t matter what they do now, they’ve lost folk like me for good. I’ll waste my vote on the Greens or Lib Dems from now on.
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It absolutely was in the clarity because it was precisely the question of clarity that I was responding to. You make a different point and while I largely agree that Labour could’ve, maybe should’ve, made a principled stand against the mandate of the referendum, it was a reasonable position to take in the circumstances. I didn’t agree with Labour’s position at the time. But to describe a decision to accept a democratic vote as ‘cowardice’ is no more than petulant abuse towards something with which you disagree and lies at the very heart of why Leave voters became so entrenched, resentful and angry towards Remain. Johnson tapped into that resentment and anger to great effect, and those that helped spread the abuse need to take part of the blame for the shit show we have in power today.

The racist elements to Brexit were repugnant and if you know anything of me or my views at all you’ll know that to say I’m arguing for UKIP et al is ridiculous. But neither am I prepared to call anyone and everyone who voted for Brexit a facist, or a racist, or thick. It clearly isn’t true and to do so only caused more entrenchment and anger and only helped increase Johnson’s majority.

The only hope of challenging Johnson was by presenting a united front. But because the Lib Dem’s did what they always do when they think they’ve got a sniff of power and lurch to the right, and because so many Remainers stoked the thicko racist rhetoric, and because the centrists spent so much time and energy attacking their own leader, and yes, because of a great deal that was wrong with Corbyn, there was no united front. There was bitterness, division, argument, name calling, blame gaming and outright abuse. No wonder that people voted in droves for the only coherent message on offer.

And as the name calling and blame gaming continues, so will Johnson and this Tory government.
 
Seanm said:
They'll be enough to convince enough of the left of the party, I think. They'll also work the centrist media up into a lasting rage before fading away to nothing and satisfying nobody. Milliband Mk2.
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He's already the clear favourite so I'm surprised he's gone this far especially since, as you say, it exposes him to attack from the liberal media, as well as the far-right press. It suggests he's going for a first round knockout in the ballot.
 
Tony L said:
Not a lot not to like there for anyone really. Its rather non-descript, but all good stuff.
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I agree but, pre-Corbyn, a lot of it would have been dismissed as hard-left fantasy (public ownership of utilities, repeal the Trade Union act, abolish tuition fees, abolish HoL, national and regional industrial strategies...).
 
droodzilla said:
I agree but, pre-Corbyn, a lot of it would have been dismissed as hard-left fantasy (public ownership of utilities, repeal the Trade Union act, abolish tuition fees, abolish HoL, national and regional industrial strategies...).
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I didn’t spot the HoL thing in a quick skim-read. Given how hopelessly biased our FPTP election system is I support a second chamber as some sort of block to extremist government politics that in reality has nothing approaching a majority of the electorate behind it. I realise the HoL is even less democratic, but it did throw a spanner into May and Johnson’s extremism on more than a few occasions and that is even more important now we have lost the considerable human rights and civil liberties protections of the EU.

I do have some issues with trade unions, e.g. I thought the combination of Corbyn’s crazy ‘free internet’ policy (which would obviously drive ISPs out of business) and an all powerful trade union presence could lead to blackouts which would be an utter disaster for so many of us who absolutely rely on this service. I would not ever want to see a McCluskey type figure with that sort of power over businesses and citizens. FWIW the Tories are at least as bad on this, the current rumblings of forcing some kind of ‘offcom’ regulation onto the internet stinks of China, Iran and other dictatorships. I oppose it 100%.
 
jackbarron said:
It figures that you'd be a supporter of Johnson the racist. There was 0% growth in the last quarter. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51459257

Jack
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Here's the crying shame of the thing - I would have loved not to have NOT voted for Johnson. He's exactly the kind of Eton educated Toff I can't abide but the LP, after 9 years in opposition remember, failed to present a credible leader capable of running the country in a responsible manner. I am sure there were millions like me. My family in the North-east mostly felt the same.
 
thebigfredc said:
Here's the crying shame of the thing - I would have loved not to have NOT voted for Johnson. He's exactly the kind of Eton educated Toff I can't abide but the LP, after 9 years in opposition remember, failed to present a credible leader capable of running the country in a responsible manner. I am sure there were millions like me. My family in the North-east mostly felt the same.
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Speaking as someone who has been very critical of Corbyn I’d have him as PM any day rather than Johnson and his coterie of slimy sycophants. I think Johnson is far more likely to create long term damage to the country.
 
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