Next Labour Leader II

[ks.234]

Some of the guff on here is laughable. ....

......Corbyn was massively at fault, the process that elected him was not fit for purpose, his dithering on Brexit, his dishonesty in not adopting a position, the running down of Labours record in office by own party, the infighting were all factors. These factors outweighed anything the media could put forward.

I never realised I was a centrist & a Tory until the brains trust on here kept telling me so.

The problem with Brexit and Remainers in particular is that they completely failed to understand the strength of feeling and emotion of Brexiteers. It was said often on here that if only Corbyn would come off the fence all would well. It was only a few voices pointing out that such a strategy would lose more than it would gain.

Corbyn’s party did not run down Labour’s record in office, and the infighting was from those who were in power under Blair and his supporters, not from Corbyn. The infighting started by the Centrists and continued relentlessly. I agree with you that the media was not the primary cause in Labour’s disaster, but it was the Centrist campaign that the papers fed on and exploited. It was the fact that Labour had to fight the Tories and the centrists in his own party that was first and foremost why Johnson is now in power.

 

[Woodface]

Nobody has said it is all down only to Corbyn, or is all down only to the media. Laughable guff, as you say.

If you want to deny brexit was the major issue ("get brexit done" and all that) and that the media has run an anti-Labour smear campaign for over a decade (so that's been going on "BC") that's upto you. FWIW I haven't noticed anyone trying to tell you whether you're a centrist of a tory. Who gives a toss?

Brexit was a massive issue, most likely the main one, I refer you to my comments re JCs position on this & him trying to fight election on other terms. Print media less powerful than ever.

 

[Woodface]

The problem with Brexit and Remainers in particular is that they completely failed to understand the strength of feeling and emotion of Brexiteers. It was said often on here that if only Corbyn would come off the fence all would well. It was only a few voices pointing out that such a strategy would lose more than it would gain.

Corbyn’s party did not run down Labour’s record in office, and the infighting was from those who were in power under Blair and his supporters, not from Corbyn. The infighting started by the Centrists and continued relentlessly. I agree with you that the media was not the primary cause in Labour’s disaster, but it was the Centrist campaign that the papers fed on and exploited. It was the fact that Labour had to fight the Tories and the centrists in his own party that was first and foremost why Johnson is now in power.

It is difficult to imagine how the Labour Party could have done worse by adopting a more clear position; we are guessing at best here. A lot of MPs never believed in Corbyn, that was a massive issue, centrists did try to prevent Brexit through Parliament & this impacted on the election. Many of the left did support this though so I am not sure it is so binary.

 

[ks.234]

It is difficult to imagine how the Labour Party could have done worse by adopting a more clear position; we are guessing at best here. A lot of MPs never believed in Corbyn, that was a massive issue, centrists did try to prevent Brexit through Parliament & this impacted on the election. Many of the left did support this though so I am not sure it is so binary.

Labour did have a clear position on Brexit. Corbyn said very clearly that he would implement the result of the referendum and negotiate to stay in the CU and the SM. It was Remainers, myself included, who banged on and on and demanded a change of position.

We were wrong.

But some, rather than admitting they were wrong are now looking for scapegoats for their own culpability and using words like ‘dithering’ and ‘dishonest’ to describe a change of position they demanded.

 

[Brian]

Brexit was a massive issue, most likely the main one, I refer you to my comments re JCs position on this & him trying to fight election on other terms. Print media less powerful than ever.

I didn’t mention the print media.

 

[Brian]

It is difficult to imagine how the Labour Party could have done worse by adopting a more clear position; we are guessing at best here. A lot of MPs never believed in Corbyn, that was a massive issue, centrists did try to prevent Brexit through Parliament & this impacted on the election. Many of the left did support this though so I am not sure it is so binary.

The Labour position on brexit was clear. The media told you it wasn’t clear and even though you are a sentient being you believe it wasn’t.

 

[Woodface]

Labour did have a clear position on Brexit. Corbyn said very clearly that he would implement the result of the referendum and negotiate to stay in the CU and the SM. It was Remainers, myself included, who banged on and on and demanded a change of position.

We were wrong.

But some, rather than admitting they were wrong are now looking for scapegoats for their own culpability and using words like ‘dithering’ and ‘dishonest’ to describe a change of position they demanded.

I thought his position was ridiculous, negotiate a new settlement upon which he would stay neutral & then have another referendum. Get Brexit done proved to be more effective.

I personally thought he was dishonest on the subject.

 

[Woodface]

I didn’t mention the print media.

Which media did you mean then?

 

[ks.234]

I thought his position was ridiculous, negotiate a new settlement upon which he would stay neutral & then have another referendum. Get Brexit done proved to be more effective.

I personally thought he was dishonest on the subject.

To say he was dishonest is ridiculous

 

[Woodface]

The Labour position on brexit was clear. The media told you it wasn’t clear and even though you are a sentient being you believe it wasn’t.

I made my own mind up, even as a remainer the last thing I wanted was a 2nd ref

 

[Woodface]

To say he was dishonest is ridiculous

It really isn’t. He had a view on Brexit but chose not to share it

 

[ks.234]

It really isn’t. He had a view on Brexit but chose not to share it

Really. what was this view he kept secret?

 

[Brian]

Which media did you mean then?

As you’ve missed the last decade of it I doubt it matters really.

 

[Brian]

I thought his position was ridiculous, negotiate a new settlement upon which he would stay neutral & then have another referendum. Get Brexit done proved to be more effective.

I personally thought he was dishonest on the subject.

So the position was clear, yet earlier you said it wasn’t clear. And you call Corbyn dishonest...

 

[Joe]

Really. what was this view he kept secret?

If it was a secret we wouldn't know would we ?

 

[Woodface]

Really. what was this view he kept secret?

It was a secret. Most evidence suggested he was a leaver & anti EU

 

[Woodface]

So the position was clear, yet earlier you said it wasn’t clear. And you call Corbyn dishonest...

Just because I understood it doesn’t make it clear, it is a focus group of one. Didn’t a TV audience laugh at him as he tried to explain his neutrality?

If you assume a position is universally understood then you are on shaky ground.

 

[Woodface]

As you’ve missed the last decade of it I doubt it matters really.

Just answer the question. Press, TV, Online, Direct Mail, social media?

Media neutrality has never existed why assume that they were particularly nasty to dear JC? I recall how bad Kinnock had it but he was also up against a formidable opponent.

 

[Brian]

Just because I understood it doesn’t make it clear, it is a focus group of one. Didn’t a TV audience laugh at him as he tried to explain his neutrality?

If you assume a position is universally understood then you are on shaky ground.

I’m relieved you understood the Labour position.

A TV audience finding a position amusing does not mean the position is unclear. It’s more likely that in a similar way to yourself, they disagree with the position. What is your point there?

I don’t assume a position is universally understoood.

 

[Brian]

Just answer the question. Press, TV, Online, Direct Mail, social media?

Media neutrality has never existed why assume that they were particularly nasty to dear JC? I recall how bad Kinnock had it but he was also up against a formidable opponent.

Strawman.