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Next Labour Leader II

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Woodface said:
It was a secret. Most evidence suggested he was a leaver & anti EU
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No, he didn’t campaign for Leave. He was critical of the EU certainly, and so he should be unless you believe the EU perfection personified, but his voting record show that he generally voted for more EU integration, for referendums on EU membership, and for membership of the EU. So where is this ‘most evidence’ you speak of?
 
Woodface said:
Just answer the question. Press, TV, Online, Direct Mail, social media?

Media neutrality has never existed why assume that they were particularly nasty to dear JC? I recall how bad Kinnock had it but he was also up against a formidable opponent.
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It's not an assumption. Evidence exists, if you're interested.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/media-and-comm...nts/research/projects/corbyn/Cobyn-Report.pdf

https://www.lboro.ac.uk/media-centr...press-hostility-to-labour-reaches-new-levels/

Also you know Kinnock lost two elections don't you. One of the against the formidable (checks notes) uh...John Major.

Now revered as a great moderniser who changed the fundamental orientation and philosophy of the party, as Corbyn will be. There will be statues everywhere.
 
Brian said:
I’m relieved you understood the Labour position.

A TV audience finding a position amusing does not mean the position is unclear. It’s more likely that in a similar way to yourself, they disagree with the position. What is your point there?

I don’t assume a position is universally understoood.
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The point is that many probably didn’t understand his position, is that plain enough for you? The TV audience may have been more representative than the folk on here? Certainly a bigger focus group. Perhaps those watching at home joined in the hilarity? If the election was about Brexit then his position is open to question as he lost.
 
ks.234 said:
No, he didn’t campaign for Leave. He was critical of the EU certainly, and so he should be unless you believe the EU perfection personified, but his voting record show that he generally voted for more EU integration, for referendums on EU membership, and for membership of the EU. So where is this ‘most evidence’ you speak of?
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Some of it is here. "... he voted in favour of leaving the European Economic Community in 1975, against the Maastricht Treaty that created the modern-day European Union and against the Lisbon Treaty, which is the constitutional basis for the EU."

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexit/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-view-european-union-141104
 
Seanm said:
It's not an assumption. Evidence exists, if you're interested.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/media-and-comm...nts/research/projects/corbyn/Cobyn-Report.pdf

https://www.lboro.ac.uk/media-centr...press-hostility-to-labour-reaches-new-levels/

Also you know Kinnock lost two elections don't you. One of the against the formidable (checks notes) uh...John Major.

Now revered as a great moderniser who changed the fundamental orientation and philosophy of the party, as Corbyn will be. There will be statues everywhere.
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I was a social studies UG in the early 90s with a load of future social workers I was acutely aware of media bias then as I am now. Corbyn lost against May & BJ, I doubt there will statues of Corbyn.

You are aware that press circulation or RW titles is down by two thirds compared to the 90s, they may well be more hostile but there is less of it by volume. Yes, I know about social media but the delivery is very different & arguably less effective. I’ve just come back from a media conference on this very subject; I go to about four of these a year, lots of experts present.

BTW, where is the Kinnock statue?
 
gassor said:
Some of it is here. "... he voted in favour of leaving the European Economic Community in 1975, against the Maastricht Treaty that created the modern-day European Union and against the Lisbon Treaty, which is the constitutional basis for the EU."

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexit/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-view-european-union-141104
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lol. Blimey, what a yawn but many thanks for reinforcing my point. Great job, man. Keep it up.

Brexit fears raised as Jeremy Corbyn reveals he voted 'No' to membership of the European Community, when Britain voted 67 to 33 to stay in after a 1975 referendum

Serving as a local councillor in the London borough of Haringey in 1975, Corbyn voted 'No' to Britain's membership of the European Community, when Britain voted 67 to 33 to stay in.

Footage of Jeremy Corbyn has been unearthed from the nineties, showing the Labour leader as an MP freely accusing the European Union of being a "great Frankenstein machine" that is damaging to all who live in it.

During a debate on LBC radio, Mr Corbyn said: 'If Europe becomes a totally brutal organisation that treats every one of its member states in the way that the people of Greece have been treated at the moment, then I think Europe will lose a lot of support from a lot of people.

Source: Telegraph and inews
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/11...oted-for-Britain-to-leave-Europe-in-1975.html

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexit/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-view-european-union-141104


 
Woodface said:
The point is that many probably didn’t understand his position, is that plain enough for you? The TV audience may have been more representative than the folk on here? Certainly a bigger focus group. Perhaps those watching at home joined in the hilarity? If the election was about Brexit then his position is open to question as he lost.
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The Labour position was easy to understand, the media claimed otherwise. All part of undermining Labour and Corbyn. Repeat something often enough and all that. These things work, man.

This is right under your nose, so seeing as you're such an expert in these matters I must assume you're unwilling to see it. The only other explanation isn't something I care to mention as I'm far too polite.
 
ks.234 said:
Labour did have a clear position on Brexit. Corbyn said very clearly that he would implement the result of the referendum and negotiate to stay in the CU and the SM. It was Remainers, myself included, who banged on and on and demanded a change of position.

We were wrong.
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I don’t accept that. My perspective, as I have said time and again, is that Labour failed entirely to make a coherent moral argument against the most ugly rebirth of white ethnic nationalism and right-wing exceptionalism that was the key selling point for Brexit. They should have challenged it head-on. I have viewed myself as being left of centre as long as I have been politically conscious. I was a supporter of Rock Against Racism, Red Wedge, I stood against apartheid etc. Never in a million years did I expect to see a Labour Party roll-over in capitulation to the likes of UKIP, the EDL, BNP, ERG and the other ugly far-right extremes of the Conservative Party. Even less so after the hatred cynically whipped up by this shit resulted in the murder of a Labour MP and relentless abuse and death threats hurled at many others. What a vacuous, spineless, cowering joke of a party Labour became under Corbyn! Even the bloody Lib Dems had more fight in them! It is the duty of the left to fight fascism in all its guises. Corbyn’s Labour was missing in inaction.

I was right!

PS FWIW I suspect they’d still have lost, but they’d have lost with some dignity, and maybe by a smaller margin.
 
Just to underline the state the LP is in - today's response from HerMajesty's opposition to the Government's HS2 announcement was spouted by no other than Jeremy Corbyn.

He's a dead duck who commands no respect or authority since he lost the GE.

They missed a golden opportunity to get on the Tories case - FFS its two months since Labour's defeat - instead we had to listen to JC droning on again.
 
Tony, I’m similar. I think the Labour Party has been cowered by the sheer pressure of the right, here in the media, the instincts of the voting public, overseas, Trumpism. They need to get vocal against this crap and fast. They will have to form alliances to do so.
 
Brian said:
The Labour position was easy to understand, the media claimed otherwise. All part of undermining Labour and Corbyn. Repeat something often enough and all that. These things work, man.

This is right under your nose, so seeing as you're such an expert in these matters I must assume you're unwilling to see it. The only other explanation isn't something I care to mention as I'm far too polite.
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People wanted Brexit done but after 3+ frigging years, voters had no way of knowing if Labour would do it if they won. They didn't want a re-run of the referendum and all the rest of it. The argument about the rights and wrongs had moved on to one of 'we voted for Brexit and the frigging politicians are stopping it'. They had voted for it and wanted it done and were fed up with Labour's prevarication. After trying to fathom out what Labour's position meant for them, people looked at "Get Brexit Done" and thought at least one party is not farting about on the issue. You see that don't you?
 
I wish I felt more optimistic but I still think Labour is on the verge of extinction. The UK is not immune to the populism sweeping the globe and politically we have seen large parts of the country move to the right over Brexit and many outside the cosmopolitan centres are adamant that British culture is being eradicated. If Labour maintains it's leftward trajectory it will not connect with Tory voters in the NE or anywhere else and if it cannot get these voters on board in the next 10 years it will become fossil material. It may split before that happens, but there will be no happy ending either way.
 
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Tony L said:
I don’t accept that. My perspective, as I have said time and again, is that Labour failed entirely to make a coherent moral argument against the most ugly rebirth of white ethnic nationalism and right-wing exceptionalism that was the key selling point for Brexit. They should have challenged it head-on. I have viewed myself as being left of centre as long as I have been politically conscious. I was a supporter of Rock Against Racism, Red Wedge, I stood against apartheid etc. Never in a million years did I expect to see a Labour Party roll-over in capitulation to the likes of UKIP, the EDL, BNP, ERG and the other ugly far-right extremes of the Conservative Party. Even less so after the hatred cynically whipped up by this shit resulted in the murder of a Labour MP and relentless abuse and death threats hurled at many others. What a vacuous, spineless, cowering joke of a party Labour became under Corbyn! Even the bloody Lib Dems had more fight in them! It is the duty of the left to fight fascism in all its guises. Corbyn’s Labour was missing in inaction.

I was right!

PS FWIW I suspect they’d still have lost, but they’d have lost with some dignity, and maybe by a smaller margin.
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Just because Corbyn wasn’t Remain after the referendum does not mean his position was unclear. I happen to agree that Labour should have stood for Remain, but that’s irrelevant to the question of clarity.

The way you link Brexit and Brexit voters with racism, fascism is I’m afraid wrong on several levels and one one of the reasons that Remain failed so miserably. The way to challenge the Tories was by presenting a united front, but the Lib Dem’s and the constant centrist whinging, sniping and calling anyone who disagreed with them thick racists, put paid to that.
 
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ks.234 said:
Just because Corbyn wasn’t Remain after the referendum does not mean his position was unclear. I happen to agree that Labour should have stood for Remain, but that’s irrelevant to the question of clarity.

The way you link Brexit and Brexit voters with racism, fascism is I’m afraid wrong on several levels and one one of the reasons that Remain failed so miserably. The way to challenge the Tories was by presenting a united front, but the Lib Dem’s and the constant centrist whinging put paid to that.
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You can blame the media, blame the centrists, blame Uncle Tom Cobley if you want, but Labour did most of the damage to itself.
 
I think it goes back further than this to 2016. My biggest beef is that if Corbyn and Labour had mounted a full throated campaign for remaining in the EU instead of mealy mouthed prevarication, the UK probably would have voted to remain and would not be in this dreadful mess.
 
"Dreadful mess'?

Well everything seems ok for the moment at least. No shortages of anything so far despite the doom mongers. The UK economy growing 3 times faster than Germany's. I realise we are probably at the warm up before the game commences but at least, thanks to Johnson, we know which team we are on and who's in it.

Ray
 
Brian said:
The Labour position was easy to understand, the media claimed otherwise. All part of undermining Labour and Corbyn. Repeat something often enough and all that. These things work, man.

This is right under your nose, so seeing as you're such an expert in these matters I must assume you're unwilling to see it. The only other explanation isn't something I care to mention as I'm far too polite.
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Yawn, giving far too much weight to the media compared to all the other factors, one of which was that the policy was a nonsense born out of compromise rather than leadership.

Enjoy the rest of your day.
 
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