There were indeed millions like you. I have voted Labour all my life and continued to do so, but not without concern for the utterly unelectable policies. The Labour party are on their way to becoming an utter irrelevance like the Greens. If they don't sort their life out they will be overtaken by the Greens and can sit back in the political wilderness knowing that they "have won the argument". Well done. Here in my ivory tower I am master of all I can see, for there are no windows.
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Seanm
pfm Member
In fairness the idea that we might have some kind of digital Ofcom isn't really a Tory idea (their big idea before the 2017 election, IIRC, was basically to replace the internet with another, cleaner version!) it's the point that more or less disinterested experts and policy makers have arrived at following years of inquiry (see here). Of course how the Tories shape things at this early stage will be crucial, but a more regulated internet is coming, all over the world, and it doesn't have to be an authoritarian turn.
It's fine to criticise Labour's broadband policy but calling it "crazy" is part of the problem here: anything innovative enough to actually deal with the problem is just automatically delegitimised as bananas. There are lots of good arguments for free broadband, and again lots of perfectly mainstream backing. Here's the hard left journal...Wired:
On Starmer's HoL thing...it's really tame stuff, compared with what's actually needed. "We'll do something about the House of Lords!" has been Labour's way of dealing with demands for real constitutional reform for a long time.
Stunsworth
pfm Member
The were proposing free _full-fibre_ broadband to everyone in the country. The costs for doing that for all the isolated rural dwellings would have been astronomical.
lordsummit
Moderator
I like Starmer’s presentation. These are my ten key tenets. Labour policy was presented so badly at the last election . The broadband thing was absolute garbage, there was so much else that needed sorting first. ‘I have no position on Brexit but, allow me to gift you free broadband instead’. Seriously who advised him?
I voted Labour because I had to; my constituency still turned blue. If the left of the party doesn’t accept that they got it wrong there is no hope for us. A simple message, presented with clarity and some policies that chime with the electorate, not fanciful dreams that make half the country think they’ll be unemployed in two weeks time.
I’ve vacillated between Starmer and Nandy, I’ve pretty much chosen now. I can’t believe though that the idiotic Burgon is a serious contender for deputy. I’m hoping that either Rayner or Allin-Khan gets it. I’m hedging towards the latter.
I voted Labour because I had to; my constituency still turned blue. If the left of the party doesn’t accept that they got it wrong there is no hope for us. A simple message, presented with clarity and some policies that chime with the electorate, not fanciful dreams that make half the country think they’ll be unemployed in two weeks time.
I’ve vacillated between Starmer and Nandy, I’ve pretty much chosen now. I can’t believe though that the idiotic Burgon is a serious contender for deputy. I’m hoping that either Rayner or Allin-Khan gets it. I’m hedging towards the latter.
doctorf
left footed right winger
You’ve said that for at least the last two elections Tony.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
Keep the gobshite sarcastic bit to yourself, gassor.What has been said is Labour didn’t have a position, or people didn’t understand the position. This is not the same as saying people disagreed with the Labour position, which is what you’re saying now and with which I agree. Labour lost because people wanted brexit done, obviously I can see people disagreed with the Labour position of a second referendum.
I’m glad you have acknowledged people voted the way they did ‘to get brexit done’ but will you soon be claiming not and it was all down to Corbyn? Then maybe it was down to the policies?
Here is an accurate version of your post...
People wanted Brexit done but after 3+ frigging years voters knew Labour would call another referendum if they won. They didn't want a re-run of the referendum and all the rest of it. The argument about the rights and wrongs had moved on to one of 'we voted for Brexit and the frigging politicians are stopping it'. They had voted for it and wanted it done. People looked at "Get Brexit Done" and thought at least one party is going to deliver.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
More accurately, had Labour gone full throttle for leave they would have walked it.
Tony L
Administrator
Its actually a little unfair of me to say it at all as I’m only a Labour voter if I am in a Lab/Tory (or UKIP) marginal. Every other scenario I vote either Lib Dem or Green. I will obviously always vote against the Tories/far-right, but if that vote is already won or hopeless then I’d prefer to let my vote count towards the national voteshare for the progressive parties that actually wish to bring proper representative democracy to the UK.
Thank you for making this point, there is a material difference in how media is consumed by format. Newspaper titles would much rather have a small bump in print circulation than a bigger rise online. Online presence is a necessary evil in print terms, they would much rather the internet had never been invented. This is doubly so with regards to magazines.
gassor
There may be more posts after this.
When you post "seeing as you're such an expert in these matters I must assume you're unwilling to see it" and "the kind of shite you've bought into" that's fine, but when someone says "you see that don't you" they are "gobshite sarcastic"? Strange world (and syntax) you inhabit where the game is all about lobbing personal insults rather than having a discussion.
gassor
There may be more posts after this.
Interestingly the Daily Mail has one of the biggest on-line circulations of any newspaper in the world, but the most popular items by far are about celebrity gossip. IMO people on the left like to exaggerate the influence of the media as it allows them an overarching excuse to explain why the world view of most people does not coincide with theirs.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
I wasn’t talking to you. Are you his dad?
He suggested he has expert status, it’s hardly my fault if he posted counter to that claim. ‘unwillingness to see the obvious’ was polite, imo.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Sure they would, with only 65 percent of their support pissed off instead of 35. Sounds like a plan. Had they just stuck to a public vote on the terms rather than the fantasy of renegotiaton they might. Labour Leavers wanted Brexit more than a Labour government, no problem with that - let's see if they enjoy it.
Colin Barron
pfm Member
Brian, there lies the dilemma it would have suited the Blythe and Sedgefield voters, but not his new found friends the middle class. He decided to be all thing to all men/woman.
Seanm
pfm Member
If you're trying to create a fantasy Britain of woke trans teenagers, Asian grooming gangs and terrorist-supporting Labour politicians then do you want your readers to engage rigorously and at length with your concoctions, or would you rather they cast a horrified eye over it all before passing on to something sunnier? Doesn't even take 2 minutes: you can soak up all this poison in 10 seconds on the way past the news stands, if you're in the mood, which let's face it the average Tory voter always is.
I think the "Tory propaganda machine" is pleased enough with people's lack of interest in politics, since in the end that's what it's trying to produce. Lack of interest in politics goes very well with the absolutely burning conviction that somebody somewhere is trying to mug you off and needs to get what's coming to them, which is where the Conservatives come in.
Tim Jones
pfm Member
Not entirely for the first time, I don't disagree with at least the first two thirds of this post Sean, but then it all goes semantically wrong somehow, and I wonder how a "lack of interest in politics" squares with an "absolutely burning conviction that someone is trying to mug you off." Is this a kind of Ralph Miliband-ian thing?
Seanm
pfm Member
It's a kind of generalised, anti-political, they're-all-the-same resentment, which the Tory press stokes to keep the corpse moving.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
Steve,
The main factor was brexit. If the tory poodles had campaigned on a straight leave rather than remain even they would have achieved more seats, imo.
It’s a hypothetical. At crunch time of placing the cross on the paper, if Labour and Conservatives had cancelled each other out on brexit by opting to leave, I happen to believe Labour would have done better than they did.
I actually don’t care anyway. I was responding to yet another unjustified assumption from a hard-remainer that Labour would have done better to opt for remain. They would not imo. A majority in the country want to leave the EU. It’s way past time for people to accept it.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
It's opinion Brian, but it is undeniable that Labour's support were roughly two thirds Remain. So thinking that a Leave position wouldn't have produced an even worse result is rather a wishful thinking leap. It's also the case that all the significant research interviewing most people who switched votes were more concerned at the prospect of JC as PM. The majority in the UK for Brexit was made up mainly from the Tory party, then the Brexit/UKIP faction. Using the same 'majority' logic it's also true that more people voted for Remain parties than Brexit parties in the Dec election. Neither of these contentions matter a jot. It was not a vote on Brexit, it was an election.
Cummings is no fool. He knew an election would deliver Brexit, whereas a vote on the deal would not. He knew that the election would harness the anti-Corbyn vote and split the opposition to Brexit. Don't get me started on granting him the election for which Swinson can take most responsibility - the whole lot was lost at that point.
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