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Next Labour Leader II

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ks.234 said:
Guff. There is plenty of acceptance that Labour got things wrong. Every prospective candidate has been speaking about what went wrong and what they intend to do about it.
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Now they say what went wrong....where were they before the election ?...silent and compliant .
 
Brian said:
I didn’t say the media decides how people vote, what I’m saying is the media has a big influence on how people decide to vote. Can’t believe I had to write that.

Are you seriously saying you have never heard those ‘quotes’ before? Again, what planet are you on?
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Are you seriously now saying those aren't actual quotes from the media ie the relentless tory propaganda machine? Well well. So where did the quotes you made come from then?
 
gassor said:
Are you seriously now saying those aren't actual quotes from the media ie the relentless tory propaganda machine? Well well. So where did the quotes you made come from then?
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:D

Is that your comprehension? Oh well...
 
Joe said:
..and have been rejected at the ballot box yet again.

but, carry on.
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The next time, Joe, there won't be a "get brexit done" to help win it for the tories

Let's put it this way. If Labour has to ditch centre-left policies and move to the right to become electable then I will be looking for another party to support. I'm sure I won't be alone in that because I want a centre-left party, not a right wing party, however I recognise I will have to accept the majority of the electorate are right-wingers and want conservative crap policies.
 
Joe said:
Bloody hell ! :)
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Yes. Not because of anything to do with Labour itself, but more to do with the hard centrists who are more interested in bickering and saying I told you so than putting their egos aside in order to present a united face to the Tories. This thread, which is supposed to be looking forward, has exposed the rancor and
Intransigence of militant moderates who want to promote their own 20/20 hindsight more than anything else. Who spend so much time arguing against some vague representation of evil but cannot themselves say what they actually stand for.

The truth of Labour’s failure was not primarily Brexit or Corbyn. It was the divisions and infighting within Labour itself.
 
ks.234 said:
The truth of Labour’s failure was not primarily Brexit or Corbyn. It was the divisions and infighting within Labour itself.
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Sadly a story almost as old as the Labour party itself....it was always thus when I was an active member. I do think that it has always been the same in the Tory part as well; it's just that they have channelled their divisions into rancour about the EU...I wonder what their lightening rod will be now ?
 
ks.234 said:
The truth of Labour’s failure was not primarily Brexit or Corbyn. It was the divisions and infighting within Labour itself.
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It was all of the above, Corbyn, Brexit (and in particular Corbyn's fence-sitting), some divisive policy that were completely unnecessary at this point (free broadband for all, nationalisation, independent schools etc.) plus the fact that Labour's divides were bad enough in opposition but looked really undesirable/destructive if in power.
 
ks.234 said:
You say forget the blame game, then go into the blame game in your very next sentence. But looking forward, what radical policy changes would you like to see?
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It is not the blame game to point out that Corbyn may not be responsible for all of their dreadful defeat after 10 years of Tory government but he is accountable.

I have absolutely no idea how Labour can recover quickly from this mess. I see the Tories are using data collection to find out what the customer wants, which is really the place to start. The other tips from DC (lecture after Brexit referendum) was keep it simple with a few core points, keep politicians away from policy which is most effectively derived from social media.
 
jackbarron said:
The chances are I will vote Green at the next local and general election.

The UK has the most right-wing government of my lifetime in power and, unfortunately, a pathetic Labour opposition.
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Didn’t you say that before the last two elections Jack?
 
gassor said:
Are you seriously now saying those aren't actual quotes from the media ie the relentless tory propaganda machine? Well well. So where did the quotes you made come from then?
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It’s a good question. I mean, when pensioners in small towns suddenly start using the term “woke” and complaining about the left making them use 125 different gender pronouns...where does that come from?

Just one of those things I suppose, no way of telling, but we should certainly listen to what are clearly authentic and legitimate concerns.
 
gassor said:
Take it easy, you seem to be getting your Y-Fronts in a tangle. The bits with inverted commas around them in this context indicate they are direct quotes. But they are not real they are just made up by you. Otherwise show whereabout in the Tory press they came from. As for the media deciding how people vote you need to do more investigation, (I'm going to use quotation marks here indicating that I am making a direct quote, OK) "The Independent recently reported that only 28% of Sun readers voted the way the paper wanted them to."

https://www.indy100.com/article/sun...-ukip-labour-turnout-yougov-exit-poll-7789206
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Yet right wing billionaires buy loss making newspapers, the reason they do it because it advertises their viewpoint and advertising works, otherwise it wouldn’t be such a big business.
 
h.g. said:
Agreed but it is not primarily the hard left that has failed. The hard left today is no different to what is was 40 years ago or very likely will still be in 40 years time. They are an ineffectual bunch as has been demonstrated every time they have obtained or got near power whether here or abroad for more than a century. An inability to understand why is almost certainly a requirement to support the hard left. My modest attempt to prod some self examination earlier didn't seem to be understood but that's faith for you.

The main failure must lie with the moderate bulk of the party for becoming so ineffectual and useless that a few enthusiasts from the hard left were able to seize control. If they either put the hard left back in their box or let them separate off with the labour party's label will labour's current moderates be any less useless and ineffectual than they were 5 years ago?

So why are the moderates in the labour party so useless? My best guess is primarily because they lost their identity as representing the economic interests of the 99% by promoting an economic policy for 3 decades that gave on average all the economic benefits of growth to the 1% and none to the 99%. Yes they did OK on the social side when in power and blundered on foreign policy but by not supporting the 99% economically and spectacularly reinforcing that in the financial crash they are very much part of the economic problem for the 99% and not part of the solution. They still aren't as best I can judge but this is obviously difficult with the hard left in control.

Hopefully this election will resolve if the labour party splits or not. If the moderates succeed and put the hard left back in their box it would be reasonable to expect them to win the next election by simply not being the conservative party with economic and social conditions deteriorating for most. But will they address our problems with wealth distribution or be content to be in charge while improving social conditions for the 99% while abdicating responsibility to mange economic conditions?

It is hard to be optimistic about politics at the moment.
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You’re continued musings about supporting the interests of the 99% and your demonisation of what you call the ‘hard left’ are completely at odds with each other. If want support for the interests of the 99% against the 1%, you are not going to find it in the middle ground, it isn’t there.

If you are genuinely supportive of the interests of the 99% and rather than the 1%, you’ll find that support set out here. If you find anything in there ‘hard left’ your support for the 99% is not founded on anything rational, and can only be down to a touching faith in a mythical centre ground.
 
Some of the guff on here is laughable. The media has influence but it is not the determining factor, we are sentient beings with differing views & prejudices. The default of blaming the media is a failure to admit that the argument has been lost. Politicians lie, they always have & always will.

Corbyn was massively at fault, the process that elected him was not fit for purpose, his dithering on Brexit, his dishonesty in not adopting a position, the running down of Labours record in office by own party, the infighting were all factors. These factors outweighed anything the media could put forward.

I never realised I was a centrist & a Tory until the brains trust on here kept telling me so.
 
russel said:
Yet right wing billionaires buy loss making newspapers, the reason they do it because it advertises their viewpoint and advertising works, otherwise it wouldn’t be such a big business.
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Rather contradictory. Loss making titles are ‘big business’? Not sure the DM or The Times make a loss.
 
russel said:
Yet right wing billionaires buy loss making newspapers, the reason they do it because it advertises their viewpoint and advertising works, otherwise it wouldn’t be such a big business.
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These days they'd be better off targeting social media. Cheaper and more effective.
 
Woodface said:
Some of the guff on here is laughable. The media has influence but it is not the determining factor, we are sentient beings with differing views & prejudices. The default of blaming the media is a failure to admit that the argument has been lost. Politicians lie, they always have & always will.

Corbyn was massively at fault, the process that elected him was not fit for purpose, his dithering on Brexit, his dishonesty in not adopting a position, the running down of Labours record in office by own party, the infighting were all factors. These factors outweighed anything the media could put forward.

I never realised I was a centrist & a Tory until the brains trust on here kept telling me so.
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Nobody has said it is all down only to Corbyn, or is all down only to the media. Laughable guff, as you say.

If you want to deny brexit was the major issue ("get brexit done" and all that) and that the media has run an anti-Labour smear campaign for over a decade (so that's been going on "BC") that's upto you. FWIW I haven't noticed anyone trying to tell you whether you're a centrist of a tory. Who gives a toss?
 
Seanm said:
It’s a good question. I mean, when pensioners in small towns suddenly start using the term “woke” and complaining about the left making them use 125 different gender pronouns...where does that come from?
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Just a little ditty I've been working on. It goes like this, 1-2-3-4; "Woke up this morning with the pronoun blues."
 
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