Next Labour Leader II

[Stunsworth]

Most people know the GE was lost due to more than brexit, however it's clear brexit was the major factor, not Labour policies and that is important.

Of all Labour defectors, 53% said the main reason they voted for someone else was they didn't want Corbyn to be Prime Minister. Of those Labour defectors who voted Tory 73% said they didn't want Corbyn to be Prime Minister. Of those switching to the Lib-Dems 51% said they didn't want Corbyn to be Prime Minister.

For Tory defectors the second most popular reason was Brexit at 71%, followed by not believing Labour's policies could be implemented (61%).

Details here under 'Why did you defect'...

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-co...DIAGNOSIS-OF-DEFEAT-LORD-ASHCROFT-POLLS-1.pdf

 

[Colin Barron]

You do have this habit of repeating these same things regardless of what anyone says to you, but I'll give it another go.

Most people know the GE was lost due to more than brexit, however it's clear brexit was the major factor, not Labour policies and that is important.

Corbyn is going, not many give a shit about him anymore but notice there is a campaign already growing against Starmer and he isn't even Labour leader yet. The tory propaganda machine is getting up a head of steam for the next 5 years.

Regarding your continued obsession with "failing to deal with AS". You've been asked before but never explained how does Labour stop the tory media reporting whatever they choose? They can report any lie they choose to with impunity. Fact is, I have never heard anyone mention antisemitism outside of media reports and this forum, let alone as something on their mind ahead of the GE. Why do you believe it was an important factor in the GE other than you (and others) were told it was as part of the general anti-Labour smear campaign and that made it so?

You're not alone gassor, many people have bought into the anti-Labour/anti-Corbyn propaganda and to that extent, Corbyn is a factor. "Corbyn likes terrorists". "Corbyn is a Marxist", "how can you vote Labour, look at that Diane Abbott woman", "Labour will steal your house", "where will the money come from for those Labour promises", "why don't Labour sort that AS problem", "Labour will tax you to oblivion and give it all to wasters, "Boris is a really nice man". All relentless tory propaganda. They bought the election, gassor.

The smear campaign against the next Labour leader is already underway.

Brian, Labour have totally lost the plot. How they regain their popularity with traditional working class voters is any ones guess but one thing is certain, something needs to change.

 

[h.g.]

Whilst people like Seanm and other hard lefties on here disappear up their arses, the UK's poor and disadvantaged are getting by on the bones of theirs as the Labour Party has failed them.

Agreed but it is not primarily the hard left that has failed. The hard left today is no different to what is was 40 years ago or very likely will still be in 40 years time. They are an ineffectual bunch as has been demonstrated every time they have obtained or got near power whether here or abroad for more than a century. An inability to understand why is almost certainly a requirement to support the hard left. My modest attempt to prod some self examination earlier didn't seem to be understood but that's faith for you.

The main failure must lie with the moderate bulk of the party for becoming so ineffectual and useless that a few enthusiasts from the hard left were able to seize control. If they either put the hard left back in their box or let them separate off with the labour party's label will labour's current moderates be any less useless and ineffectual than they were 5 years ago?

So why are the moderates in the labour party so useless? My best guess is primarily because they lost their identity as representing the economic interests of the 99% by promoting an economic policy for 3 decades that gave on average all the economic benefits of growth to the 1% and none to the 99%. Yes they did OK on the social side when in power and blundered on foreign policy but by not supporting the 99% economically and spectacularly reinforcing that in the financial crash they are very much part of the economic problem for the 99% and not part of the solution. They still aren't as best I can judge but this is obviously difficult with the hard left in control.

Hopefully this election will resolve if the labour party splits or not. If the moderates succeed and put the hard left back in their box it would be reasonable to expect them to win the next election by simply not being the conservative party with economic and social conditions deteriorating for most. But will they address our problems with wealth distribution or be content to be in charge while improving social conditions for the 99% while abdicating responsibility to mange economic conditions?

It is hard to be optimistic about politics at the moment.

 

[Brian]

Oh dear

What's up? Can't find it?

Of all Labour defectors, 53% said the main reason they voted for someone else was they didn't want Corbyn to be Prime Minister. Of those Labour defectors who voted Tory 73% said they didn't want Corbyn to be Prime Minister. Of those switching to the Lib-Dems 51% said they didn't want Corbyn to be Prime Minister.

For Tory defectors the second most popular reason was Brexit at 71%, followed by not believing Labour's policies could be implemented (61%).

Details here under 'Why did you defect'...

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-co...DIAGNOSIS-OF-DEFEAT-LORD-ASHCROFT-POLLS-1.pdf

Polls are only ever quoted here by someone when they think it supports their agenda. I can't say I'm bothered what these Ashcroft polls supposedly say.

Brian, Labour have totally lost the plot. How they regain their popularity with traditional working class voters is any ones guess but one thing is certain, something needs to change.

Sure. That's what's happening now. Which bit(s) in my post do you disgree with, Colin?

 

[deanf]

... Didn’t momentum decide on their candidate before balloting the members?

An informal decision was made behind closed doors twelve months ago, the requirements were Woman > Northern > Working Class; the order of preference was Laura Pidcock > Rebecca Long Bailey > Angela Rayner. It just took a subsequent democratic process to formalise it.

 

[gassor]

You do have this habit of repeating these same things regardless of what anyone says to you, but I'll give it another go.

Most people know the GE was lost due to more than brexit, however it's clear brexit was the major factor, not Labour policies and that is important.

Corbyn is going, not many give a shit about him anymore but notice there is a campaign already growing against Starmer and he isn't even Labour leader yet. The tory propaganda machine is getting up a head of steam for the next 5 years.

Regarding your continued obsession with "failing to deal with AS". You've been asked before but never explained how does Labour stop the tory media reporting whatever they choose? They can report any lie they choose to with impunity. Fact is, I have never heard anyone mention antisemitism outside of media reports and this forum, let alone as something on their mind ahead of the GE. Why do you believe it was an important factor in the GE other than you (and others) were told it was as part of the general anti-Labour smear campaign and that made it so?

You're not alone gassor, many people have bought into the anti-Labour/anti-Corbyn propaganda and to that extent, Corbyn is a factor. "Corbyn likes terrorists". "Corbyn is a Marxist", "how can you vote Labour, look at that Diane Abbott woman", "Labour will steal your house", "where will the money come from for those Labour promises", "why don't Labour sort that AS problem", "Labour will tax you to oblivion and give it all to wasters, "Boris is a really nice man". All relentless tory propaganda. They bought the election, gassor.

The smear campaign against the next Labour leader is already underway.

If you want to be taken seriously why do you make up quotes when you have criticised the Tory press of doing the very same thing? My main point, however, is that while the press certainly has a marginal impact on voting behaviour the vast majority of people vote on what they see and experience in their everyday lives. Even if you had never read the Daily Express or Daily Mail in your life would you watch Jeremy Corbyn and think there is a man oozing leadership and statesmanship or that Boris Johnson is a man who can be trusted to help the poorest in society?

Wasn't it the Daily Mail which broke the Johnson girlfriend row story in the first place (if not they gave it a lot of prominence), does that show the Tory propaganda machine doing it's utmost to help the Tories win an election? The world is full of smear and conspiracy theories, I think you'll find that American pharmaceutical companies are behind the coronavirus if you want to look. People don't believe this stuff because they are not stupid, they don't just accept everything that pops through the letterbox, otherwise, they would be replacing their windows every month of the year.

 

[Tony L]

Of all Labour defectors, 53% said the main reason they voted for someone else was they didn't want Corbyn to be Prime Minister. Of those Labour defectors who voted Tory 73% said they didn't want Corbyn to be Prime Minister. Of those switching to the Lib-Dems 51% said they didn't want Corbyn to be Prime Minister.

I can fully understand Labour centrists, small business owners etc jumping to the SNP, LDs or Greens rather than following Corbyn's vision, but I’ll never comprehend how working class northern Labour voters looked at a feckless lying Bullingdon Club elitist Tory toff and thought ‘I got to get me some of that...’. It is just beyond my powers of comprehension, though I don’t understand Trump, Farage or Hitler either.

 

[Brian]

If you want to be taken seriously why do you make up quotes when you have criticised the Tory press of doing the very same thing? My main point, however, is that while the press certainly has a marginal impact on voting behaviour the vast majority of people vote on what they see and experience in their everyday lives. Even if you had never read the Daily Express or Daily Mail in your life would you watch Jeremy Corbyn and think there is a man oozing leadership and statesmanship or that Boris Johnson is a man who can be trusted to help the poorest in society?

Wasn't it the Daily Mail which broke the Johnson girlfriend row story in the first place (if not they gave it a lot of prominence), does that show the Tory propaganda machine doing it's utmost to help the Tories win an election? The world is full of smear and conspiracy theories, I think you'll find that American pharmaceutical companies are behind the coronavirus if you want to look. People don't believe this stuff because they are not stupid, they don't just accept everything that pops through the letterbox, otherwise, they would be replacing their windows every month of the year.

Me making up quotes? What quotes? I just posted the kind of shite you've bought into. If you want to be taken seriously stop burping out the outpourings of the tory press.

Marginal impact? What planet are you on?

 

[Brian]

I can fully understand Labour centrists, small business owners etc jumping to the SNP, LDs or Greens rather than following Corbyn's disastrous vision, but I’ll never comprehend how working class northern Labour voters looked at a feckless lying Bullingdon Club elitist Tory toff and thought ‘I got to get me some of that...’. It is just beyond my powers of comprehension, though I don’t understand Trump, Farage or Hitler either.

They weren't seeing a feckless lying Bullingdon Club elitist Tory toff, they voted for someone to "get brexit done" and that's it.

 

[jackbarron]

Starmer seems almost certain to win: if he doesn't it will be because enough members will have seen his wooden performances, and grown frustrated at how little he's actually saying, or noticed the threats underlying the blandishments.

This is what George Grylls writes in the New Statesman article you have linked to:

"Starmer has proposed ending the ability of the NEC to impose its preferred parliamentary candidates on CLPs; secondly, he wants to force the NEC to publish details of its decisions on the Labour Party website; and thirdly, Starmer will appoint independent bodies to investigate complaints rather than allowing an NEC committee to decide."

All of that makes sense to me. I won't bother forking out £25 to vote for Starmer or any other candidate for Leader. I don't trust them and have voted for Labour every general election during my lifetime, except one.

I like Lisa Nandy in many respects, but there is something not quite right about her. Her nationalism, dislike of the SNP and support of the way Spain cracked down on the Catalans. I find it hard to believe she's a racist, given her father, Dipak, drafted the 1976 Race Relations Bill.

Rosena Allin-Khan is the only Labour candidate I rate and she is standing for Deputy Leader. The chances are I will vote Green at the next local and general election.

The UK has the most right-wing government of my lifetime in power and, unfortunately, a pathetic Labour opposition.

Jack

 

[gassor]

Me making up quotes? What quotes? I just posted the kind of shite you've bought into. If you want to be taken seriously stop burping out the outpourings of the tory press.

Marginal impact? What planet are you on?

Take it easy, you seem to be getting your Y-Fronts in a tangle. The bits with inverted commas around them in this context indicate they are direct quotes. But they are not real they are just made up by you. Otherwise show whereabout in the Tory press they came from. As for the media deciding how people vote you need to do more investigation, (I'm going to use quotation marks here indicating that I am making a direct quote, OK) "The Independent recently reported that only 28% of Sun readers voted the way the paper wanted them to."

https://www.indy100.com/article/sun...-ukip-labour-turnout-yougov-exit-poll-7789206

 

[Colin Barron]

I can fully understand Labour centrists, small business owners etc jumping to the SNP, LDs or Greens rather than following Corbyn's vision, but I’ll never comprehend how working class northern Labour voters looked at a feckless lying Bullingdon Club elitist Tory toff and thought ‘I got to get me some of that...’. It is just beyond my powers of comprehension, though I don’t understand Trump, Farage or Hitler either.

To look at the Labour party business as usual, there does not appear to be any acceptance that they got it wrong at the election or more importantly do something it.

 

[Colin Barron]

What's up? Can't find it?


Polls are only ever quoted here by someone when they think it supports their agenda. I can't say I'm bothered what these Ashcroft polls supposedly say.


Sure. That's what's happening now. Which bit(s) in my post do you disgree with, Colin?

Forget the blame game and move on. Basically at the last GE labour had a rubbish leader, too many policies and MPs telling their constituents that they got it wrong on brexit. A radical change in policy and leadership is needed.

 

[ks.234]

To look at the Labour party business as usual, there does not appear to be any acceptance that they got it wrong at the election or more importantly do something it.

Guff. There is plenty of acceptance that Labour got things wrong. Every prospective candidate has been speaking about what went wrong and what they intend to do about it.

 

[ks.234]

Forget the blame game and move on. Basically at the last GE labour had a rubbish leader, too many policies and MPs telling their constituents that they got it wrong on brexit. A radical change in policy and leadership is needed.

You say forget the blame game, then go into the blame game in your very next sentence. But looking forward, what radical policy changes would you like to see?

 

[ks.234]

This is what George Grylls writes in the New Statesman article you have linked to:

"Starmer has proposed ending the ability of the NEC to impose its preferred parliamentary candidates on CLPs; secondly, he wants to force the NEC to publish details of its decisions on the Labour Party website; and thirdly, Starmer will appoint independent bodies to investigate complaints rather than allowing an NEC committee to decide."

All of that makes sense to me. I won't bother forking out £25 to vote for Starmer or any other candidate for Leader. I don't trust them and have voted for Labour every general election during my lifetime, except one.

I like Lisa Nandy in many respects, but there is something not quite right about her. Her nationalism, dislike of the SNP and support of the way Spain cracked down on the Catalans. I find it hard to believe she's a racist, given her father, Dipak, drafted the 1976 Race Relations Bill.

Rosena Allin-Khan is the only Labour candidate I rate and she is standing for Deputy Leader. The chances are I will vote Green at the next local and general election.

The UK has the most right-wing government of my lifetime in power and, unfortunately, a pathetic Labour opposition.

Jack

Yes, I might be looking at the Greens myself

 

[Brian]

Take it easy, you seem to be getting your Y-Fronts in a tangle. The bits with inverted commas around them in this context indicate they are direct quotes. But they are not real they are just made up by you. Otherwise show whereabout in the Tory press they came from. As for the media deciding how people vote you need to do more investigation, (I'm going to use quotation marks here indicating that I am making a direct quote, OK) "The Independent recently reported that only 28% of Sun readers voted the way the paper wanted them to."

https://www.indy100.com/article/sun...-ukip-labour-turnout-yougov-exit-poll-7789206

I didn’t say the media decides how people vote, what I’m saying is the media has a big influence on how people decide to vote. Can’t believe I had to write that.

Are you seriously saying you have never heard those ‘quotes’ before? Again, what planet are you on?

 

[Brian]

Forget the blame game and move on. Basically at the last GE labour had a rubbish leader, too many policies and MPs telling their constituents that they got it wrong on brexit. A radical change in policy and leadership is needed.

The policies are sound, all that is needed is a bit if tweaking. Leadership has to change but it won’t make much difference given the grip the tories have on the media.

 

[Seanm]

Are you joking? I'm talking about people who last week told me the only reason we lost the election is because the right wing media wouldn’t give Jeremy a chance, and maybe a bit about Brexit but that wasn’t our fault.

Momentum are well organised and can get their members to turn out (to select meetings) and are told to vote X or Y, anyone who dissents gets excommunicated with immediate effect, this has happened to a few good friends. I had people on the day of the election telling me we'd smashed it, if you don't knock on doors and that's what you're being told you tend to believe it. To quote an acquaintance, when I told him a fortnight before the election I thought we could be looking at a 30-40-50 Tory majority said, 'do you think so? the circles I mix in people are saying it'll be our best result ever'.

I don't recognised this picture. It seems to me that what Momentum actually is varies quite wildly according to place. Where I am it’s basically a mechanism for drawing together existing leftist groups and engaging new, mostly young activists. Just about everyone involved will belong to other networks that are much more significant to them, and would look confused or shrug at the idea of being excluded from Momentum.

In places where activist networks are less dense I guess Momentum would seem more significant – but in this case we’re talking about cliques. Cliques can exclude people and no doubt that’s frustrating, but they can’t “excommunicate” anyone: that’s the sort of inflationary rhetoric I associate with the right wing press, as is the idea that Momentum can control a 500 000 strong membership or somehow go above their heads and install their chosen candidate. Again, if they could do any of this, how come twice as many CLPs have come out for Starmer as for RLB?

 

[Seanm]

My modest attempt to prod some self examination earlier didn't seem to be understood but that's faith for you.

This is hilarious coming from someone who studiously avoids responding to posts inviting them to back up their cosmology with facts or analysis, and chooses instead to engage with concern trolls like my man The Big C, who only really want to talk about a___holes.