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Next Labour Leader II

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droodzilla said:
A brief report on the Rebecca Long Bailey (RLB) leadership event I attended last week. It's the second part of my Labour leadership odyssey (I'm doing it, so you don't have to). My thoughts on Lisa Nandy are here: Next Labour Leader II

The event took place in a medium-sized performance space (capacity around 500) and was sold out. The vibe was very different to Nandy's event which was held in a huge lecture theatre. In some ways it was more informal and less controlled, but it was also structured as a rally, with guest speakers including Olivia Blake, the newly elected MP for Sheffield Hallam (delighted to have her as my MP), and a couple of union bods. The event was also organised by Young Labour before the invitation was extended to all members so there were probably more younger members there than at the Nandy event.

In terms of presentation, RLB gave a strong, committed speech, with plenty of humour and came across better (more "human") than I expected. She has at least a couple of verbal tics that grate with me: a tendency to uplift at the end of sentences (which suggests weakness); and a tendency to talk about "our communities" (which, in the circumstances comes across as presumptuous). In general I think she shares Corbyn's weakness for abstract language ("social justice" etc) although she's nowhere near as bad. This is exemplified in her big idea of "aspirational socialism" which, however good it might be when you unpack it, is a bit of a mouthful (compare: get Brexit done!). In contrast, Nandy's language is consistenty more concrete (calculatedly so, I think).

There was plenty of good stuff in the speech, mainly focused on workers rights and the environment, as combined in the Green New Deal. People who consider RLB lightweight need to reflect on the fact that she drove the development of that policy, in the face of opposition from some unions, and worked with members to draft a detailed implementation plan, so it wasn't just pie in the sky. In my view it was a strategic failure not to make this the centrepiece of Labour's campaign, and I believe RLB has said as much (implicitly criticising the leadership in the process). There is no evidence that (Brexit aside) individual Labour policies were unpopular in the 2019 GE so RLB's clear and unambiguous commitment to them is a big plus for me. Another positive is that she sees the big picture (e.g. the dual threat of climate change and automation to the living standards of the majority) and has a vision for how to address it.

The Q&A session was, again, less structured than it was at the Nandy event. I felt RLB was very strong when answering questions on her "home ground" - her enthusiasm for developing an effective industrial strategy was palpable. However, she seemed more hesitant when answering other questions and seemed to fall back on brief, schematic answers. I was surprised by this because it's not something I've noticed in her hustings performances.

Overall, I think it's unfair (bordering on latant sexism) to portray RLB as "continuity Corbyn", and it's disappointing, if not surprising, to see the liberal feminist hacks at The Guardian jump on that particular bandwagon. In my view, she's is an excellent politician, with a huge amount to offer, especially in the development of policy. Whether that means she will make a good leader is another matter. Perhaps the presentational glitches I mentioned above, can be addressed with time and effort (personally, I think they can be, as long as they're recognised as a problem). I'm more concerned by whether RLB is any good at thinking on her feet, which includes her ability to swerve political traps (e.g. the 10/10 answer). Maybe there are parallels with Gordon Brown here - he too was strong within his area of expertise but fared less well with the "anything goes" rough and tumble of leadership.

But none of the candidates truly inspire me, so she may yet get my vote.

Anyway, I'm seeing Keir Starmer tonight - maybe he will convert me?!
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Yes, it is unfair that RLB is painted in the same strokes as Corbyn, everything she offers has nothing to do with Corbyn. The association of her with Corbyn has little of substance to it.

However, as we’ve seen just recently, substance has little to do with peoples prejudices. For that reason I look forward to your thoughts on the more acceptable face of Keir Starmer
 
Woodface said:
You appear to favour RLB, that is fine but you seem to criticise Nandy for her flaws while ignoring RLBs gaffes. I have seen Nandy as being referred to as authoritarian & racist on here, this seems something of a stretch.
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Not sure that constitutes twisting the facts. Haven't seen anyone here call Nandy a racist. Threatening to deal with Scottish nationalists like Madrid did Catalonian separatists is pretty out there, IMO, and suggests authoritarian instincts. Confirmed, for me, when she said she'd exclude SNP from UK-wide debates, and that members shouldn't criticise councillors. She's the know-your-place candidate. Or one of them.
 
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Seanm said:
Not sure that constitutes twisting the facts. Haven't seen anyone here call Nandy a racist. Threatening to deal with Scottish nationalists like Madrid did Catalonian separatists is pretty out there, IMO, and suggests authoritarian instincts. Confirmed, for me, when she said she'd exclude SNP from UK-wide debates, and that members shouldn't criticise councillors. She's the know-your-place candidate. Or one of them.
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It wasn’t you but it did happen. I think the Spanish quotes were definitely ‘out there’ but have been cleared up since. I don’t agree the ‘know your place’ comment, Corbyn was far more guilty of that & the associated ‘we Know what’s best for you’ trope.

Is members criticising councillors any different from the other infighting that has been deplored? Selective unity? What about when councillors become MPs, is there a cleansing ceremony;)
 
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RLB has everything in common with Corbyn in that if she gets the job it will have been Momentum, and to an extent the hard left unions, that put her there. Neither represent the spectrum of views within the party and importantly neither are prepared to budge an inch or tolerate dissent. Several other MPs are about to find out they are mandated in the same way. You may or may not think that is a good thing!

Admittedly her public speaking has come a long way, but mostly since she started doing an impression of Andrew Gwynne MP. The people I know who are voting for RLB think they are voting for a media friendly Jeremy Corbyn and she has five years to get up to speed.

 
deanf said:
RLB has everything in common with Corbyn in that if she gets the job it will have been Momentum, and to an extent the hard left unions, that put her there. Neither represent the spectrum of views within the party and importantly neither are prepared to budge an inch or tolerate dissent. Several other MPs are about to find out they are mandated in the same way. You may or may not think that is a good thing!

Admittedly her public speaking has come a long way, but mostly since she started doing an impression of Andrew Gwynne MP. The people I know who are voting for RLB think they are voting for a media friendly Jeremy Corbyn and she has five years to get up to speed.

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This betrays a pretty condescending view of your fellow members. Everyone will get to vote: are you suggesting the left unions and Momentum will have brainwashed them? If Starmer wins will the right unions and Labour First have brainwashed them? Apart from anything else I don't think this fits with what Momentum actually does, which (ISTM) is campaign and produce slates: it doesn't really impose political lines from which dissent is or isn't tolerated. As for right wing unions being more open, tolerant and democratic than the left wing ones, arf.

Anyway Starmer clearly has a very strong lead. When does the Momentum brain virus kick in? It's a really odd time to be getting resentful about the grip the hard left has on the party. Starmer seems almost certain to win: if he doesn't it will be because enough members will have seen his wooden performances, and grown frustrated at how little he's actually saying, or noticed the threats underlying the blandishments.
 
The latest Ashcroft poll doesn't make comfortable reading for those who don't recognise that Labour getting hammered in the last election wasn't just down to Brexit.

"Labour defectors were most likely to say they switched because they did not want Mr Corbyn to be prime minister, did not believe Labour would be able to deliver on their promises, no longer thought Labour represented people like them and wanted to get Brexit done." Corbyn was singled out, not surprisingly in my opinion, as "weak, indecisive, lacking in patriotism, had "apparent terrorist sympathies", failed to deal with antisemitism, was "excessively left-wing" and unsuitable to lead the country."

If Labour wants to get near forming a government any time soon they need to bear the Corbyn experience in mind.
 
Seanm said:
This betrays a pretty condescending view of your fellow members. Everyone will get to vote: are you suggesting the left unions and Momentum will have brainwashed them? If Starmer wins will the right unions and Labour First have brainwashed them? Apart from anything else I don't think this fits with what Momentum actually does, which (ISTM) is campaign and produce slates: it doesn't really impose political lines from which dissent is or isn't tolerated. As for right wing unions being more open, tolerant and democratic than the left wing ones, arf.

Anyway Starmer clearly has a very strong lead. When does the Momentum brain virus kick in? It's a really odd time to be getting resentful about the grip the hard left has on the party. Starmer seems almost certain to win: if he doesn't it will be because enough members will have seen his wooden performances, and grown frustrated at how little he's actually saying, or noticed the threats underlying the blandishments.
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Are you joking? I'm talking about people who last week told me the only reason we lost the election is because the right wing media wouldn’t give Jeremy a chance, and maybe a bit about Brexit but that wasn’t our fault.

Momentum are well organised and can get their members to turn out (to select meetings) and are told to vote X or Y, anyone who dissents gets excommunicated with immediate effect, this has happened to a few good friends. I had people on the day of the election telling me we'd smashed it, if you don't knock on doors and that's what you're being told you tend to believe it. To quote an acquaintance, when I told him a fortnight before the election I thought we could be looking at a 30-40-50 Tory majority said, 'do you think so? the circles I mix in people are saying it'll be our best result ever'.
 
gassor said:
The latest Ashcroft poll doesn't make comfortable reading for those who don't recognise that Labour getting hammered in the last election wasn't just down to Brexit.

"Labour defectors were most likely to say they switched because they did not want Mr Corbyn to be prime minister, did not believe Labour would be able to deliver on their promises, no longer thought Labour represented people like them and wanted to get Brexit done." Corbyn was singled out, not surprisingly in my opinion, as "weak, indecisive, lacking in patriotism, had "apparent terrorist sympathies", failed to deal with antisemitism, was "excessively left-wing" and unsuitable to lead the country."

If Labour wants to get near forming a government any time soon they need to bear the Corbyn experience in mind.
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Most of those things were obvious from day 1 of Corbyn’s leadership. It’s amazing that many Labour people still don’t get it.
 
Whilst people like Seanm and other hard lefties on here disappear up their arses, the UK's poor and disadvantaged are getting by on the bones of theirs as the Labour Party has failed them.

And maintaining the theme: Her Majesty's official opposition - my arse.

Does anybody know if JC plans to step down as an MP once he gets round to relinquishing the leadership (term used loosely)?

Ray
 
Seanm said:
. As for right wing unions being more open, tolerant and democratic than the left wing ones, arf.

.
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So you are saying that left wing unions are intolerant undemocratic and less open.In fact you are saying that all unions are.
 
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Seanm said:
This betrays a pretty condescending view of your fellow members. Everyone will get to vote: are you suggesting the left unions and Momentum will have brainwashed them? If Starmer wins will the right unions and Labour First have brainwashed them? Apart from anything else I don't think this fits with what Momentum actually does, which (ISTM) is campaign and produce slates: it doesn't really impose political lines from which dissent is or isn't tolerated. As for right wing unions being more open, tolerant and democratic than the left wing ones, arf.

Anyway Starmer clearly has a very strong lead. When does the Momentum brain virus kick in? It's a really odd time to be getting resentful about the grip the hard left has on the party. Starmer seems almost certain to win: if he doesn't it will be because enough members will have seen his wooden performances, and grown frustrated at how little he's actually saying, or noticed the threats underlying the blandishments.
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You keep going on about Starmers lack of charisma (which I agree on btw) but I think Corbyn is pretty much the most boring politician I can recall.

Didn’t momentum decide on their candidate before balloting the members?
 
gassor said:
The latest Ashcroft poll doesn't make comfortable reading for those who don't recognise that Labour getting hammered in the last election wasn't just down to Brexit.

"Labour defectors were most likely to say they switched because they did not want Mr Corbyn to be prime minister, did not believe Labour would be able to deliver on their promises, no longer thought Labour represented people like them and wanted to get Brexit done." Corbyn was singled out, not surprisingly in my opinion, as "weak, indecisive, lacking in patriotism, had "apparent terrorist sympathies", failed to deal with antisemitism, was "excessively left-wing" and unsuitable to lead the country."

If Labour wants to get near forming a government any time soon they need to bear the Corbyn experience in mind.
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Other polling has already identified the "prospect of a Corbyn led government" as a much bigger issue than Brexit. Don't expect that to make much difference to what you see here.
 
gassor said:
The latest Ashcroft poll doesn't make comfortable reading for those who don't recognise that Labour getting hammered in the last election wasn't just down to Brexit.

"Labour defectors were most likely to say they switched because they did not want Mr Corbyn to be prime minister, did not believe Labour would be able to deliver on their promises, no longer thought Labour represented people like them and wanted to get Brexit done." Corbyn was singled out, not surprisingly in my opinion, as "weak, indecisive, lacking in patriotism, had "apparent terrorist sympathies", failed to deal with antisemitism, was "excessively left-wing" and unsuitable to lead the country."

If Labour wants to get near forming a government any time soon they need to bear the Corbyn experience in mind.
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You do have this habit of repeating these same things regardless of what anyone says to you, but I'll give it another go.

Most people know the GE was lost due to more than brexit, however it's clear brexit was the major factor, not Labour policies and that is important.

Corbyn is going, not many give a shit about him anymore but notice there is a campaign already growing against Starmer and he isn't even Labour leader yet. The tory propaganda machine is getting up a head of steam for the next 5 years.

Regarding your continued obsession with "failing to deal with AS". You've been asked before but never explained how does Labour stop the tory media reporting whatever they choose? They can report any lie they choose to with impunity. Fact is, I have never heard anyone mention antisemitism outside of media reports and this forum, let alone as something on their mind ahead of the GE. Why do you believe it was an important factor in the GE other than you (and others) were told it was as part of the general anti-Labour smear campaign and that made it so?

You're not alone gassor, many people have bought into the anti-Labour/anti-Corbyn propaganda and to that extent, Corbyn is a factor. "Corbyn likes terrorists". "Corbyn is a Marxist", "how can you vote Labour, look at that Diane Abbott woman", "Labour will steal your house", "where will the money come from for those Labour promises", "why don't Labour sort that AS problem", "Labour will tax you to oblivion and give it all to wasters, "Boris is a really nice man". All relentless tory propaganda. They bought the election, gassor.

The smear campaign against the next Labour leader is already underway.
 
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