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MDAC first listen (part XXIII)

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Huh, I believe John has summarized the entire thing quite extensively, so just a few points from me ...


My “I want my unit to sound like this" statement was related to the sound signature. It had the same (or very similar) signature like the original L2 with old Tycos. The resulting music was relaxing and pleasant to listen to. This matters to me way more than congested soundstage, light bass or vocal details.

JohanH's "fusion" unit with the blue magnetic caps and the output-stabilizing caps had greater resolution and all that, but it was kind of "not right". Removing the output-stabilizing caps helped a bit, but it still didn't resolved my issues with the unit. I'd still rather get original L2'ed MDAC than JohanH's fusioned unit at that point. Fortunately, exchaning those blue (ceramic?) magnetic caps did the trick and the unit finally got the sound right. Yeah, the ultra-deep diminished bass issue was still there, along with some other specific issues perhaps, but it overall sounded much better to me. Like the difference between "I wouldn't buy that" and "I'm buying that!" in a store.

My best guess is that the instrument placement in the soundstage changed. While JohanH's fusioned unit had technically wider soundstage, most of the instruments were congested in a quite narrow area. The original L2 with old Tycos had (acoustic) guitar reverb, likely along with other instruments, at exactly the right places to generate the relaxed experience. The good news is that the same (or similar) placement can be achieved (now) with JohanH's fusioned unit as well, with extra resolution on top.

Would I describe the "congested" sound as fatiguing? Hmm, on a second thought, maybe I would. It kind of makes you "stare" at the song with a poker face, hearing all the stuff and expecting some emotion out of it, but it just doesn't happen. There's no "whoah" effect. That "waiting" can be kind of fatiguing over time, because the relaxed feeling simply doesn't occur.


Hmm, I don't remember confirming that "in such a big way", but then again - I had no idea which unit was whom until very late in the listening session. :)


In my paragraphs above, I refer to the extra 4x 100pF capacitors as "output-stabilizing caps" and the exchange of BCcomponents for Wima's as the key change at which the sound became relaxing to me. Just for the simplicity here.


I'd like to take this opportunity to describe the differences between "Toy" and "Fusion" from my point of view. I remember identifying three key points, but remember only 2 of them (sorry :) ). The most noticeable one was with vocals - the leading singer in the test track sounds a lot more "forward" and "intimate" on the Toy upgrade, while being a lot more "part of the soundstage" on the Fusion upgrade. I'd personally go with the latter version, but I guess it's down to personal preference. The second key point was instrument separation - towards the end of the song, I could hear the violin being noticeably clearer on the Fusion upgrade. It was indeed "noticeable" and perhaps made changes to the rest of the song as well. The third key point was probably the bass lightness on the Fusioned unit (thought it may be just some fault of JohanH's unit).

To a normal person, I'd probably recommend the Toy upgrade. In absolute terms, the sound quality, resolution and soundstage is, in American terms: "****in' super awesome!!!", in British terms: "quite good". So - on average - somewhere in between. The Fusion does stand out on quality recordings (preferably vinyl rips, I'd say) and is worth it if you have the money, are an audiophile, or just have a thing for perfectionism (like me). The last one being kind of a curse at times.


You never give up easily. That's a good thing, right? ... Right??


The theory with feedback loop amplification/control may be right. I never said that XYZ can't make a difference if the difference is not machine-measurable, I was always a science person, I don't approve of "let your ears (brain) decide", but letting the human auditory system do the measurements, that's a different thing. Don't tell John, but I had my blindfold with me, to give a literal meaning to the expression "blind testing" in case Renata was unable to listen / confirm our experiences.


Uh, so much for "just a few points". It was a hot day indeed, I was overdosed with antihistamines (anti-allergic pills) and therefore tired, my right ear kept malfunctioning, but despite all that, I was able to at least confirm some of John's theories. Hopefully.

The testing track used was (again) Glory Bound by The Wailin' Jennys (album Firecracker).

Going by what you say, Jiri, regarding vocal projection and focus/intimacy, the "Toy" option is possibly more attractive to me. I would rather be 'entertained' in my own room than be transported to the venue.
 
Yes, its not your imagination, the difference is quite significant!!! I'm still trying to find the cause!

Not sure if you can recall, but with the constrained unit - was the Bass lacking impact?

I would say something like that. At least seeming to have too little impact by have 'soft' edges rather than any serious lack of presence.

Still does a bit in mine, but I'm not convinced its not the class D amps on the end of my mid/bass drivers.
 
I have to buy an amplifier does someone tested naim 150/112 ?
I found one second hand for 1k€. Is it worth the price of is it better to buy a new brio r ?
My loudspeakers will at first be rega rs1 then apertura thema.

br/[/QUOT

If you do not need analogue inputs it would make sense to have the M-dac as the hub of your system. Forget about a pre-amp and spend the money on a better power amp. You may well get a NAP200 for the same price.

The RS1's are superb by the way.
 
Going by what you say, Jiri regarding vocal projection and focus/intimacy, the "Toy" option is possibly more attractive to me. I would rather be entertained in my own room than be transported to the venue.

I'd not say the fusion unit was not entertaining - its simply "awesome" :D you are really brought into the recording in a way I've never heard digital achieve.

The fusion not only makes a performance out of "good recordings" but makes poorer recordings "enjoyable" - in fact one of Jiri's test files was a REALLY old recording that has suffered the passage of time - you could image it recorded on a WAX cylinder! but we listen to it and my words at the end - "Well that made a Bloody good attempt at that" In fact it was one of the biggest surprise of the session - yes sure the Fusion unit just shows off with good recordings - but also manages to make poor recordings listenable!
 
Did you listen any classical music during the tests?

The demands on this are sometimes a bit different compared to other music styles.
 
I'd not say the fusion unit was not entertaining - its simply "awesome" :D you are really brought into the recording in a way I've never heard digital achieve.

The fusion not only makes a performance out of "good recordings" but makes poorer recordings "enjoyable" - in fact one of Jiri's test files was a REALLY old recording that has suffered the passage of time - you could image it recorded on a WAX cylinder! but we listen to it and my words at the end - "Well that made a Bloody good good of that" In fact it was one of the biggest surprise of the session - yes sure the Fusion unit just shows off with good recordings - but also manages to make poor recordings listenable!

I'm sure that "Fusion" is where I'd like to end up but I would like to be able to appreciate the step up here in my own system by living with "Toy" for a while first.

I am sure that the "Toy" option is already a big step up from the L1 CDQ :)
 
I'd not say the fusion unit was not entertaining - its simply "awesome" :D you are really brought into the recording in a way I've never heard digital achieve.

John
We need you to fusion-up (fuse?) a "good" unit and drive us all mad by then telling us how amazing it is. :)
Ian
 
I'd not say the fusion unit was not entertaining - its simply "awesome" :D you are really brought into the recording in a way I've never heard digital achieve.

The fusion not only makes a performance out of "good recordings" but makes poorer recordings "enjoyable" - in fact one of Jiri's test files was a REALLY old recording that has suffered the passage of time - you could image it recorded on a WAX cylinder! but we listen to it and my words at the end - "Well that made a Bloody good attempt at that" In fact it was one of the biggest surprise of the session - yes sure the Fusion unit just shows off with good recordings - but also manages to make poor recordings listenable!
I was indeed surprised how well The Fat Man sounded (the mp3-like heavy distortions are just on this youtube video). As I said to John - that kind of mono music was hardly listenable with my original MDAC and AKG K702 - I had to use lowend headphones to enjoy it!
 
Did you listen any classical music during the tests?

The demands on this are sometimes a bit different compared to other music styles.

I played a track with French horns - as French horns place great demands on the recording / replay chain - getting them to sound right without being unbearably bright or hard - I smiled listening to the Fusion as it managed so well, being still able to recreate fine resolution at the highest "peak" of the horn crescendos... It did not loose the plot...
 
I played a track with French horns - as French horns place great demands on the recording / replay chain - getting them to sound right without being unbearably bright or hard - I smiled listening to the Fusion as it managed so well, being still able to recreate fine resolution at the highest "peak" of the horn crescendos... It did not loose the plot...
Ok. I hope that the cheaper Toy extra for the Level 2 Upgrade isn't too bad either. I must now be satisfied with it and hope that the parts will arrive very soon to you as everything has become more complicated and delayed after I sent the DAC to you.
 
Once things have settled down and John gives the go ahead I'll re-send mine to get the toy bit done. Not going to be able to afford the other bits. Perhaps later.
 
Ok. I hope that the cheaper Toy extra for the Level 2 Upgrade isn't too bad either. I must now be satisfied with it and hope that the parts will arrive very soon to you as everything has become more complicated and delayed after I sent the DAC to you.

Toy's very good :) so nothing to worry about :)
 
I've took a week out on holidays and I've just gone through more than 40 pages on this thread alone to catch up.
Now, I think I'm needing another week.
:p

Michael
 
Sorry guys, Iv'e been away for a while and on return here I find that lots of things have changed with regard to the MDAC L2 upgrade...... that is....alternative components are to replace the L2 first batch. As I read it 'sonic consistency' is not maintained??? or rather better could be had via these new components.

So, could someone (in the know) condense the last 30 pages.

I had the original L2 upgrade..

TIA

Graham
 
Sorry guys, Iv'e been away for a while and on return here I find that lots of things have changed with regard to the MDAC L2 upgrade...... that is....alternative components are to replace the L2 first batch. As I read it 'sonic consistency' is not maintained??? or rather better could be had via these new components.

So, could someone (in the know) condense the last 30 pages.

I had the original L2 upgrade..

TIA

Graham

The original €350 L2 upgrade was confirmed to be trumped by the Fusion/Toy upgrade, though the Fusion upgrade has its merits over the Toy, it's somehow a subject to personal taste. And I think a fair comparison between Fusion and Toy has not yet been done IMHO, due to their implementation on two different machines. Sorry for over simplification on the matter, I think someone can do a far more better job than me. :)
 
Toy's very good :) so nothing to worry about :)

Well, that's settled then :)

I would love to have been there with Jiri and your good self. I really got an angle on the revealing nature of your bench setup and it does make you focus on front-end changes. I remember the relative congestion of standard MDAC versus the freer, more dynamic and more open Sovereign + mods so I can (almost) relate to Jiri's findings on the next level.

It is a pity that my attention span was so short at the time given how little sleep I'd had but 15 mins or so was enough to adjust.

The next best thing for me would be to live with "Toy" for a while chez moi and get that hit before appreciating what "Fusion" can do later.
 
Sorry guys, Iv'e been away for a while and on return here I find that lots of things have changed with regard to the MDAC L2 upgrade...... that is....alternative components are to replace the L2 first batch. As I read it 'sonic consistency' is not maintained??? or rather better could be had via these new components.

So, could someone (in the know) condense the last 30 pages.

I had the original L2 upgrade..

TIA

Graham

Hi Graham,

The first 12 out of 14 units used the last of my old stock of resistors - I used a different Brand for the last 2 units and the SQ fell apart. As I was unable to purchase the original brand (Tyco in made in Italy) I need to find a suitable replacement. Later investigations revealed that using Vishay Bulk resistors in certain positions brought a significant improvement in SQ.

The "Toy" Upgrade is a higher quality replacement for the x4 Tyco's.

The Fusion replaces 28 resistors in total - achieving the next level of performance.

The original L2MDAC upgrade with the Tyco's sound very good - only the last 2 units with the replacement "Mulicomp" resistors where sub pur.
 
I played a track with French horns - as French horns place great demands on the recording / replay chain - getting them to sound right without being unbearably bright or hard - I smiled listening to the Fusion as it managed so well, being still able to recreate fine resolution at the highest "peak" of the horn crescendos... It did not loose the plot...

IMHO opera singers at full belt are quite difficult to reproduce naturally.

- Richard.
 
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