MDAC first listen (part XXIII)
- Thread starter Richard Kimber
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I suggest you also audition Shure SRH 1840 - but needs to have played some hours, say 50.
I prefer it to HD800 and Beyer Tesla. It sounds better (more balanced), and can really do bass when there is some on the record. Some say it's bass-light, but this is just not true. In fact, it actually produces realistically heaving bass drums with actual air movement - when they have been recorded as such.
Works well with my MDAC. And it's also lighter than the others and very comfortable to wear.
Cheers,
Achim
PhilCTTE
Senior mumbler
Thanks very much. Will look at those.
Its to tie me over until mamp is available.
Looked at various second hand power amps, but requires more money than I have at moment.
Plus the hassle of selling on.
Spotted a lyngdorf semi digital and fir twice the money Bel Canto S500's. A bit wary of matching it to the MDac as per John's prev comments regards digital. Power Amps
Hi Phil, give the AKG K550s a go too, excellent value IMHO
I'd wait for the final verdict on the class D amps with M-DAC. It seems like JohanH's unit really had/has some issues of it's own and the problem is not the amp. There is also at least one person who likes M-DAC Level 1 very much with a class D amp. That said, all class D amps are not equal tho.
PhilCTTE
Senior mumbler
WAD62, Elviz... Thanks.
The Lyngdorf is tempting SDA2175, not many reviews. £650
I think I will stick to headphones and wait for the Mamp.
Going balanced for the headphones is the way to go, reading back.
There's a specific way to wire them. Are there any off the shelf which would work , or do I have to get them made up, guess it would be cheaper ?
The Lyngdorf is tempting SDA2175, not many reviews. £650
I think I will stick to headphones and wait for the Mamp.
Going balanced for the headphones is the way to go, reading back.
There's a specific way to wire them. Are there any off the shelf which would work , or do I have to get them made up, guess it would be cheaper ?
jamjar784
Barley and grape ragger
HiFi Collective web site still says 1st week in July
Hello John,
again thanks for all your efforts to make my unit the best out there
.My post earlier was sent on the go but as I also explained in my pm to you, I can live without the MDAC for some time more, so no rush to ship it back. Let's hope though that you'll find what's bugging it.
Maybe take a break and do fusions fusion?
jamjar784
Barley and grape ragger
Yesterday was an exhausting day, not helped by the fact that its getting hot here in Czech Rep, it was 27.8 DegC in the room while we where listening and todays going to be no better, its 9am and already 28.6DegC Im already topless
Ill list the units we listened too and summarized the modifications made:
1. Johnas Fusion unit with x4 100pF added for extended stability & 9600pF of BCcomponents capacitors in place of 10nF EVOX PFRs
2. Jems Silver Unit uncased with L2MDAC upgrade with Dale resistors.
3. SimonOm Black unit, fully cased, with L2MDAC upgrade with Dale resistors & with x4 100pF added for extended stability). Simons unit was ready to be shipped out together with Johans unit before I held back the shipment of both units as I was so unhappy with the sound of Johanss unit (what ever might be effecting Johans unit might also be relevant to Simons unit).
We listen to Johnas unit first reasonably wide soundstage (not as wide as with the original Tycos) + detail but Jiris first word is that it somehow sounded constrained I noted Jiri was not foot tapping along (later after listening to the other variations, we identified an annoying hardness to the lower midrange and a soft but deep Bass I describe the Bass as lacking leading edge impact.
Then we listen to Jems silver unit (Dale'd L2MDAC) Ive always been very happy with the Sound quality of this unit if only Johnas unit sounded this good from day one! Now Jiri was foot tapping and happy Bass was firm, detail not so great with narrower sound stage
Simons Black unit and Jiri said I want my unit to sound like this"! I felt is sounded pretty much like Jems unit, but with a slightly more closed soundstage and thus more congested which made it feel a little more full bodied, but lack clarity certainly when compared to Johans unit which had the widest sound stage and detail (but crippled by its hardness in the midrange and a constrained sound).
So the next step was to upgrade Jems unit to Toy Spec. (replacing its Dale resistors - using in fact Steve Toys resistors) BAM!!! Reconfirmed!!!, the Vishays bulk foils did what they do Resolution was notably lifted and sound stage opened up very nicely
The Jems Toy L2MDAC leapfrogged SimonOm Dale L2MDAC in such a big way we did not return to listening to it during the season there was simply no point as it was left behind in the dust - so a Big thumbs up to the Toy upgrade
Now that its had been confirmed the Dales where out - Vishay Bulk foils where clearly the direction to go, the rest of the day was then spent comparing Johans "Fusioned" unit and Jems "Toy" unit.
Johans Fusion unit had the lead for detail and sound stage, but its midrange hardness, and congested nature was crippling it.
The first stage was to remove the x4 100pF I had added to Johnas unit for extended stability now before the unit would not work without them but for the life of me I could not make it misbehave once Id removed them!!! Very odd, and I dont understand why it now worked without them Maybe there was a bad solder joint that Id resoldered during the rebuild (I need to look into this more today).
Johans unit with the extra x4 100pF removed opened the sound stage up even more! and increased detail, but did not resolve the Midrange hardness.
The next move was to replace the 9600pF of BCcomponents capacitors (which had Magnetic leads) to Wimas 10nF which where non magnetic this banished the midrange harness never to be heard or mentioned again.
Now the Johans Fusioned unit excelled with Clarity, Smoothness to female vocals, incredible resolution and "Tyco wide soundstage" foot tapping was back (but Jems unit was still very slightly ahead in this regards).
Johans Fusioned unit had extend it lead over Jems Toy unit that we then just mainly spent our time with the fusion unit trying to identify what was still giving it its Constrained sound. The constrained sound has ALWAYS been a REAL problem with Johans unit before the tender loving care Id extended to it, it really sound horrid the Vishay and capacitor upgrades really improved it but Ive never lost the feeling that Im still listening to these modifications though its original constriction so it nows the best sounding version, however my overriding gut feeling based upon my experience as a designer telling me that the upgrades are being limited by the units original problem that still had not been resolved satisfactorily its still being Constrained although its now the best sounding!
The softness to Johans units Bass I believe is whats resulting in the its constrained sound.
I know (and fear) that when Jemss unit is fusioned its going to blow Johans unit out the water, and this is a situation I cannot accept. I feel under so much pressure by the current situation and Johans eagerness to have his unit back that I cannot think clearly.
Time is getting so critical that unless I have a Oh yes moment Im going to give up on trying to fix Johans unit and swapout his mainboard (and transfere all the modifications) with my own unit, so that Johan then gets my own personal PCB with the Fusioned update.
Id rather not do this, not only because of the work involved, but because Ive would have failed to find the cause of Johan units issues as the designer I need to understand whats going on for any future encounters etc
Is unfortunate that I built up the first Fusioned upgrade on a unit that has got its own unique issues I had hoped that during the upgrade Id have Blindly and unknowingly removed the culprits components this unfortunately has not been the case.
Dont get me wrong, the Fusioned is unquestionably the best overall sounding unit but Johans unit has never 100% lost is unique character thats constrained it so much in its original form Its still not managed to free itself (which results in a softening of its Bass and thus its ultimate foot tapping ability). Id say that Jems unit still had the lead in this respect from New Jems had not been handicapped in anyway unlike Johans unit has proved to be a very difficult patient ( I might need Dr House's help here)!
Before Im forced to give-up on Johan and just swap its board with my own known good unit Ill give it one more try Id like to believe I never to give up easy!
The one thing Ill say is that ANYONE who says all DACs sound the same needs to be present when we swap out individual brand of capacitors or even greater extent the Vishay resistors to hear there effect on sound quality forget a whole different design!
Ill let Jiri post his own comments on what was a very long a tiring HOT day! Jiri Thank you once again for your effort and time its very useful for me to go through the variations and have independent feedback
Would it help if you upgraded another 1 or 2 units to Fusion spec. to see if Johan's black unit has a unique problem? But then maybe the parts aren't available?
JohnW
pfm member
Pretty certain it has other problems, as it always sounded constrained verses other MDAC's we have here, before I updated it to Fusion Spec.- including other black units.
I've taken a short break from Johan's unit and Fusioning Fusions unit
Even though Fusions unit will be a Sovereign + Fusion hybrid it should still give clues.This is not what I asked. John promised personally to inform me on Saturday.
Steven Toy
Accuphase newbie
I am pleased that getting the resistors on an express delivery to arrive by the weekend was worthwhile.
Jiri and John should be thankful they were not evaluating valve amps in that heat...
Thanks to both of you. The "Toy" option seems more than do-able chez Toy for the time being. The Fusion option can come later for me. I do hope you solve the mystery of Johan's unit and fix this silver/black thing.
Jiri and John should be thankful they were not evaluating valve amps in that heat...
Thanks to both of you. The "Toy" option seems more than do-able chez Toy for the time being. The Fusion option can come later for me. I do hope you solve the mystery of Johan's unit and fix this silver/black thing.
Space is the Place
pfm Member
Now this is out in the open and JW has heard differences between the DAC im glad im not going mad. As one of the original posters (with SQ and Loris) over on DIY audio i'd been waiting for the DAC for a long time, i had one from the first batch (silver) and perhaps because id been waiting for it for such a long time i was quite disappointed compared to what i had already.
I think i wrote at the time i found the DAC to be very controlled, constrained is a good word too! Like John has written above it never really got me involved in the music.
Ive had two MDACs since then, one black, one silver (just to confuse the issue) and i feel both have had much better, more open/dynamic sound than the first one by some margin.
I think i wrote at the time i found the DAC to be very controlled, constrained is a good word too! Like John has written above it never really got me involved in the music.
Ive had two MDACs since then, one black, one silver (just to confuse the issue
) and i feel both have had much better, more open/dynamic sound than the first one by some margin.
Huh, I believe John has summarized the entire thing quite extensively, so just a few points from me ...
JohanH's "fusion" unit with the blue magnetic caps and the output-stabilizing caps had greater resolution and all that, but it was kind of "not right". Removing the output-stabilizing caps helped a bit, but it still didn't resolved my issues with the unit. I'd still rather get original L2'ed MDAC than JohanH's fusioned unit at that point. Fortunately, exchaning those blue (ceramic?) magnetic caps did the trick and the unit finally got the sound right. Yeah, the ultra-deep diminished bass issue was still there, along with some other specific issues perhaps, but it overall sounded much better to me. Like the difference between "I wouldn't buy that" and "I'm buying that!" in a store.
My best guess is that the instrument placement in the soundstage changed. While JohanH's fusioned unit had technically wider soundstage, most of the instruments were congested in a quite narrow area. The original L2 with old Tycos had (acoustic) guitar reverb, likely along with other instruments, at exactly the right places to generate the relaxed experience. The good news is that the same (or similar) placement can be achieved (now) with JohanH's fusioned unit as well, with extra resolution on top.
Would I describe the "congested" sound as fatiguing? Hmm, on a second thought, maybe I would. It kind of makes you "stare" at the song with a poker face, hearing all the stuff and expecting some emotion out of it, but it just doesn't happen. There's no "whoah" effect. That "waiting" can be kind of fatiguing over time, because the relaxed feeling simply doesn't occur.
). The most noticeable one was with vocals - the leading singer in the test track sounds a lot more "forward" and "intimate" on the Toy upgrade, while being a lot more "part of the soundstage" on the Fusion upgrade. I'd personally go with the latter version, but I guess it's down to personal preference. The second key point was instrument separation - towards the end of the song, I could hear the violin being noticeably clearer on the Fusion upgrade. It was indeed "noticeable" and perhaps made changes to the rest of the song as well. The third key point was probably the bass lightness on the Fusioned unit (thought it may be just some fault of JohanH's unit).
To a normal person, I'd probably recommend the Toy upgrade. In absolute terms, the sound quality, resolution and soundstage is, in American terms: "****in' super awesome!!!", in British terms: "quite good". So - on average - somewhere in between. The Fusion does stand out on quality recordings (preferably vinyl rips, I'd say) and is worth it if you have the money, are an audiophile, or just have a thing for perfectionism (like me). The last one being kind of a curse at times.
The testing track used was (again) Glory Bound by The Wailin' Jennys (album Firecracker).
My I want my unit to sound like this" statement was related to the sound signature. It had the same (or very similar) signature like the original L2 with old Tycos. The resulting music was relaxing and pleasant to listen to. This matters to me way more than congested soundstage, light bass or vocal details.
JohanH's "fusion" unit with the blue magnetic caps and the output-stabilizing caps had greater resolution and all that, but it was kind of "not right". Removing the output-stabilizing caps helped a bit, but it still didn't resolved my issues with the unit. I'd still rather get original L2'ed MDAC than JohanH's fusioned unit at that point. Fortunately, exchaning those blue (ceramic?) magnetic caps did the trick and the unit finally got the sound right. Yeah, the ultra-deep diminished bass issue was still there, along with some other specific issues perhaps, but it overall sounded much better to me. Like the difference between "I wouldn't buy that" and "I'm buying that!" in a store.
My best guess is that the instrument placement in the soundstage changed. While JohanH's fusioned unit had technically wider soundstage, most of the instruments were congested in a quite narrow area. The original L2 with old Tycos had (acoustic) guitar reverb, likely along with other instruments, at exactly the right places to generate the relaxed experience. The good news is that the same (or similar) placement can be achieved (now) with JohanH's fusioned unit as well, with extra resolution on top.
Would I describe the "congested" sound as fatiguing? Hmm, on a second thought, maybe I would. It kind of makes you "stare" at the song with a poker face, hearing all the stuff and expecting some emotion out of it, but it just doesn't happen. There's no "whoah" effect. That "waiting" can be kind of fatiguing over time, because the relaxed feeling simply doesn't occur.
Hmm, I don't remember confirming that "in such a big way", but then again - I had no idea which unit was whom until very late in the listening session.So the next step was to upgrade Jems unit to Toy Spec. (replacing its Dale resistors - using in fact Steve Toys resistors) BAM!!! Reconfirmed!!!, the Vishays bulk foils did what they do Resolution was notably lifted and sound stage opened up very nicely
The Jems Toy L2MDAC leapfrogged SimonOm Dale L2MDAC in such a big way we did not return to listening to it during the season there was simply no point as it was left behind in the dust - so a Big thumbs up to the Toy upgrade
In my paragraphs above, I refer to the extra 4x 100pF capacitors as "output-stabilizing caps" and the exchange of BCcomponents for Wima's as the key change at which the sound became relaxing to me. Just for the simplicity here.
I'd like to take this opportunity to describe the differences between "Toy" and "Fusion" from my point of view. I remember identifying three key points, but remember only 2 of them (sorry
). The most noticeable one was with vocals - the leading singer in the test track sounds a lot more "forward" and "intimate" on the Toy upgrade, while being a lot more "part of the soundstage" on the Fusion upgrade. I'd personally go with the latter version, but I guess it's down to personal preference. The second key point was instrument separation - towards the end of the song, I could hear the violin being noticeably clearer on the Fusion upgrade. It was indeed "noticeable" and perhaps made changes to the rest of the song as well. The third key point was probably the bass lightness on the Fusioned unit (thought it may be just some fault of JohanH's unit). To a normal person, I'd probably recommend the Toy upgrade. In absolute terms, the sound quality, resolution and soundstage is, in American terms: "****in' super awesome!!!", in British terms: "quite good". So - on average - somewhere in between. The Fusion does stand out on quality recordings (preferably vinyl rips, I'd say) and is worth it if you have the money, are an audiophile, or just have a thing for perfectionism (like me). The last one being kind of a curse at times.
You never give up easily. That's a good thing, right? ... Right??
The theory with feedback loop amplification/control may be right. I never said that XYZ can't make a difference if the difference is not machine-measurable, I was always a science person, I don't approve of "let your ears (brain) decide", but letting the human auditory system do the measurements, that's a different thing. Don't tell John, but I had my blindfold with me, to give a literal meaning to the expression "blind testing" in case Renata was unable to listen / confirm our experiences.
Uh, so much for "just a few points". It was a hot day indeed, I was overdosed with antihistamines (anti-allergic pills) and therefore tired, my right ear kept malfunctioning, but despite all that, I was able to at least confirm some of John's theories. Hopefully.Ill let Jiri post his own comments on what was a very long a tiring HOT day! Jiri Thank you once again for your effort and time its very useful for me to go through the variations and have independent feedback
The testing track used was (again) Glory Bound by The Wailin' Jennys (album Firecracker).
fusion5
on the dark side of hifi...
I've taken a short break from Johan's unit and Fusioning Fusions unit
JohnW
pfm member
Now this is out in the open and JW has heard differences between the DAC im glad im not going mad. As one of the original posters (with SQ and Loris) over on DIY audio i'd been waiting for the DAC for a long time, i had one from the first batch (silver) and perhaps because id been waiting for it for such a long time i was quite disappointed compared to what i had already.
I think i wrote at the time i found the DAC to be very controlled, constrained is a good word too! Like John has written above it never really got me involved in the music.
Ive had two MDACs since then, one black, one silver (just to confuse the issue
Yes, its not your imagination, the difference is quite significant!!! I'm still trying to find the cause!
Not sure if you can recall, but with the constrained unit - was the Bass lacking impact?
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