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General Election 2024

Richard Lines said:
Re-posted images from above:-

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Regards

Richard
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Thank you, Richard.
 
Finnegan said:
And with equal respect, I think you’re demonstrating precisely the complacency that will be disastrous. I’ve frequently argued against the labelling of every authoritarian to the right of Starmer as fascist as, at best, unhelpful. But this is the real deal. It matters not a fig what Bardella utters in public. Fascists have zero respect for democracy.

Le Pen has followed the classic fascist dual strategy of the ballot box and the streets. The street fighting wing has been kept in reserve until now, as Le Pen sought to purge the most overt fascist paraphernalia inherited from her father. She uses the electoral process purely for propaganda purposes. Fascism does not arrive through elections, it is established by physically eliminating all opposition. Many big French industrialists have now thrown their lot in with her. In a straight choice between the far left of Melenchon, and the fascism of Le Pen, big business, even if it baulks at is excesses, will always side with fascism to protect its profits.
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I think you misunderstood what I was saying, which was more about the probability of MLP coming to power. I don't think they'll have a workable majority now, I believe Bardella will chicken out from the PM slot, and this will be held against MLP in 2027. I firmly believe Marine Le Pen, Bardella and all the rest are deep into neo-fascist territory, so we agree on that.

As for your last sentence, that's not the choice on offer in most places, but in places where it is, Attal's coalition has withdrawn its candidate to support Mélenchon's group. In every case, as far as I can see. Likewise, LFI are supporting Ensemble candidates everywhere. Let's see how their voters behave, fingers crossed.
 
PsB said:
I think you misunderstood what I was saying, which was more about the probability of MLP coming to power. I don't think they'll have a workable majority now, I believe Bardella will chicken out from the PM slot, and this will be held against MLP in 2027. I firmly believe Marine Le Pen, Bardella and all the rest are deep into neo-fascist territory, so we agree on that.

As for your last sentence, that's not the choice on offer in most places, but in places where it is, Attal's coalition has withdrawn its candidate to support Mélenchon's group. In every case, as far as I can see. Likewise, LFI are supporting Ensemble candidates everywhere. Let's see how their voters behave, fingers crossed.
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Well, we both hope you’re right. I don’t think I did misunderstand. I was making the point that fascism will make use of elections only as far as it is useful. Although workable majorities privilege them, whether or not they are attained, is of secondary importance to a movement whose real power is concentrated in a street fighting, paramilitary movement.

And while of course it would be ridiculously alarmist to posit that Le Pen has a street army of Brownshirts ready to go on the offensive next Monday, the fascist presence on French streets is growing worryingly, and we are diverted into Parliamentarianism at our peril.
 
Finnegan said:
Well, we both hope you’re right. I don’t think I did misunderstand. I was making the point that fascism will make use of elections only as far as it is useful. Although workable majorities privilege them, whether or not they are attained, is of secondary importance to a movement whose real power is concentrated in a street fighting, paramilitary movement.

And while of course it would be ridiculously alarmist to posit that Le Pen has a street army of Brownshirts ready to go on the offensive next Monday, the fascist presence on French streets is growing worryingly, and we are diverted into Parliamentarianism at our peril.
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Yes. The road to fascism is, to use a cliche, a process, not an event
 
ks.234 said:
You are just trolling again. You have taken a question is asked of someone else but rather than addressing that post you have used it to launch another of your ad hom attacks.
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Here we go. Ad hom again. It feels like I am being told I cannot comment on repetition but you can? You haven’t addressed all my points either.

Anyone can pick up a post where it leaves off and take it where they wish. It’s not a private conversation. It’s a jumping in point.

For the record, today I have broadly agreed ideologies are similar. Hence I cannot argue the opposite as you are now asking me to do so. I just pointed out that outcomes may be different. Maybe...

You disagree. I get it. But tell me again how wrong I am if you like? It’s raining outside.
 
Tony L said:
Is the propaganda letter personalised, e.g. is ‘Martin’ the person named on the electoral register at that address. All steering rather close to identity theft if so!
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Oh, yes, that's me ! It even had my address at the top as if it were a posh piece of my own bespoke note paper. Me writing to myself, you see.

If I had any feathers, I'd spit them ! :)
 
Jubal said:
You surely cannot dispute that despite the claimed similarities in ideology there won’t be differences in execution? That is my argument. There’s a lot we aren’t being told. It may lean either way. Let’s see.
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This is how I feel. Let's get the Conservatives out then take stock. The red wall has to be restored and given what and who they voted for last time, they have to be treated with kid gloves imo.

I do feel beaten down by this thread and that it seems one can't celebrate the impending removal of the Tories without being told it's all pointless as Labour are identical. As you said, @Jubal let's see.

I have (by postal vote) voted Labour in my Tory seat in Sussex. Had the boundaries not been changed I would certainly have voted Liberal as I was lucky to live in a Lib/Con marginal previously and would have delighted in helping end Caufield's political career. Sadly I am now stuck in a fairly secure Con seat with a fairly even split of Lib/Lab. Alas, FPTP puts the ghastly Mims in in all probability. So this occasion I've gone Labour as I want to give them a chance as the incoming Government (I shall monitor this result carefully and modulate my vote next time as necessary).

The one thing I am certain of is that anyone protesting with their vote against an admittedly pink-tinged-with-blue Labour in a seat where they might win, and putting the Tory back, should be ashamed come Friday.
 
I'm allowing myself some...not hope exactly, more like a sense that it will be enjoyable to see the Conservatives destroyed on Thursday - hopefully really, truly destroyed, vermin that they are. I'm also looking forward to the election throwing up some interesting and maybe unexpected things.

Obviously I have no hope *in* Starmer's Labour but I do think that they might be forced into doing the right thing here and there, which was completely impossible with the Tories. My hope is that they come to a rapid realisation regarding how fragile they are, and take the scale and speed of the Tories' defeat as a warning. Maybe they'll even draw the right lessons from MAcron's misadventures and from the failure of the Tories' immigration campaign. Dunno, possibly clutching at straws.

Main hope lies in people getting organised after the election and applying pressure.
 
Nic Robinson said:
This is how I feel. Let's get the Conservatives out then take stock. The red wall has to be restored and given what and who they voted for last time, they have to be treated with kid gloves imo.

I do feel beaten down by this thread and that it seems one can't celebrate the impending removal of the Tories without being told it's all pointless as Labour are identical. As you said, @Jubal let's see.

I have (by postal vote) voted Labour in my Tory seat in Sussex. Had the boundaries not been changed I would certainly have voted Liberal as I was lucky to live in a Lib/Con marginal previously and would have delighted in helping end Caufield's political career. Sadly I am now stuck in a fairly secure Con seat with a fairly even split of Lib/Lab. Alas, FPTP puts the ghastly Mims in in all probability. So this occasion I've gone Labour as I want to give them a chance as the incoming Government (I shall monitor this result carefully and modulate my vote next time as necessary).

The one thing I am certain of is that anyone protesting with their vote against an admittedly pink-tinged-with-blue Labour in a seat where they might win, and putting the Tory back, should be ashamed come Friday.
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Quite. But even tactical voting to those ends has been more than frowned upon on this thread. It’s been grim reading at times. However, we can only look forward now.

In our similarly previous safe Tory seat I for one am energised more than I have been historically to engage and attempt, in whatever reasonable way possible, to hold our expected new Labour MP to the promises he’s making. Plus to call out anything I don’t like. That’s a win and more so if I’m not alone in feeling that way.
 
Nic Robinson said:
This is how I feel. Let's get the Conservatives out then take stock. The red wall has to be restored and given what and who they voted for last time, they have to be treated with kid gloves imo.

I do feel beaten down by this thread and that it seems one can't celebrate the impending removal of the Tories without being told it's all pointless as Labour are identical. As you said, @Jubal let's see.

I have (by postal vote) voted Labour in my Tory seat in Sussex. Had the boundaries not been changed I would certainly have voted Liberal as I was lucky to live in a Lib/Con marginal previously and would have delighted in helping end Caufield's political career. Sadly I am now stuck in a fairly secure Con seat with a fairly even split of Lib/Lab. Alas, FPTP puts the ghastly Mims in in all probability. So this occasion I've gone Labour as I want to give them a chance as the incoming Government (I shall monitor this result carefully and modulate my vote next time as necessary).

The one thing I am certain of is that anyone protesting with their vote against an admittedly pink-tinged-with-blue Labour in a seat where they might win, and putting the Tory back, should be ashamed come Friday.
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I am basically on the same page. This thread gets monopolised by the same old voices who 'know best' & like to display their great knowledge ad nauseum; IMV this kind of preaching does the left no favours. Anyway, my vote has been posted & I am supporting the incumbent Labour MP who I think is pretty decent.

I've been called a Tory many times on here despite never voting for them & even supported Corbyn at the ballot box.

Judicious use of the 'ignore' feature is highly recommended.
 
That Tory propaganda letter is hilarious(ly bad), suggests labour will be in power for twenty years and do various things that I'd be quite happy with! And as for being ignored, pretty much the first thing that the Tories did when coming into power was to ignore any information about a) what they could do to make most people's lives better or b) about the negative impact of their policies. Various policies (bedroom tax, benefit cap, freezing of LHA rates, right to buy) have been an abject failure - they have failed to meet any of their aims whilst pushing people into destitution and costing the state more than any money saved to pick up the pieces. They should never be in charge of this stuff. Here's some reading on the subject: -
www.theguardian.com

When I look back on 14 years of Tory rule, there is one awful housing policy that stands out | Peter Apps

Holding down benefit rates has sent homelessness soaring and led to an exodus of poorer people from our cities, says Inside Housing editor Peter Apps
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
www.theguardian.com

What is the UK’s two-child benefit cap and how has it affected families?

A brief guide to the policy that Keir Starmer has pledged to keep despite widespread criticism
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
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