Dedicated Mains / Memera / Roy K Riches

[jonnoshore]

I have heard some super-duper RKR-mainsed-up systems, and did not share the owners' enthusiasm.

Which systems did you hear? Would be worth knowing whether they were correctly implemented systems, as per RKR or 'slightly' modified by electricians that say it won't make 'any' difference.

I have the man himself here today and I now have a dedicated earth rod ~2m from my consumer unit... Quite a difference I'm happy...

 

[Blzebub]

.... Would be worth knowing whether they were correctly implemented systems, as per RKR or 'slightly' modified by electricians that say it won't make 'any' difference.

Ah yes. The magic spell must be recited word perfect otherwise the magic doesn't work.

 

[S-Man]

RKR very kindly sent me his copious documents on mains supply improvements. I was hoping to read some good technical reasons why certain configurations sound better than others, however most of the notes seem to be based on the bigger/more is better philosophy.

My own rather modest experiments with mains components over the years has lead me to believe that the most important aspect is the way the equipment is earthed and not the supply impedance.

Many years ago and long before I had heard of PFM and Hydras etc. I built myself a junction box based mains distribution system based on star earthing and minimum plug/socket interfaces. I was impressed by the clarity and dynamics this approach brought to the sound and it took me a long time to realize that the apparent clarity was at the expense of coherence and musicality. Logic tells me the Hydra approach should be good, but each time I try it, after the initial wow factor I always go back to the bog standard 2 standard mains leads plugged into a double unswitched socket (I now have only 2 mains powered pieces of kit, an SB+ and a power amp).

I agree with RKR that a separate earth spike and a separate spur should bring worthwhile improvements, unfortunately concrete floors (made out of NASA/Fort Knox indestructible material so it seems) have prevented me from using these.

 

[strummer]

I have heard some super-duper RKR-mainsed-up systems, and did not share the owners' enthusiasm.

Surely the “owner’s enthusiasm” is all that matters. He’s the one that has to listen to it every day.

I’m extremely pleased with the result & for 300 quid, it represents a fantastic value for money.

If we’re all being honest with each other, your objections have nothing to do with the subject, but your personal dislike of RKR. Roy doesn’t make any money from it, so what’s the point of your exercise?

What did Roy do to upset you? Or you Clive? Come one, spit it out!

 

[Fox]

Yep. He's going weird again

 

[Fox]

heheh... whatever you say

 

[Marco]

My, this thread has developed nicely since I left it last!

Mike

 

[Fox]

Sure,,the idea it makes a difference to the SOUND unless you "see" sound"
Seriously...what you`re saying is "I don`t believe..."
Well....do the tests......

Seeing sound, as in a frequency response curve? Good idea.

So of those whom have done this. Lets see before and after room sweeps, plots anything beyond personal apocrypha to show how a HiFi has been transformed. If its as jaw-dropping as everyone says it is, then there will be clear changes in the frequency response of a room plot. What can be measured can be represented.

Or is it, like the vast majority of the nutbar tweaks here all unsubstantiated guff -- based on people's experiences after long periods of silence while you wait for your Spur to be installed, then for the gear to warm up, then for the cable to burn in (several weeks I am told, right?).

 

[Re-Joyce]

I think the acid test was the number of tings. Seem to remember a lot of threads discussing tinginess anyway.


Fwiw I think S-man is right - earthing is very important.


Cheers

Jason

 

[andyr]

If its as jaw-dropping as everyone says it is, then there will be clear changes in the frequency response of a room plot. What can be measured can be represented.

Hi fox,

Can you explain in what way "the frequency response of a room plot" will change if the improvement resulting from an RKR-style mains upgrade results in more 'aliveness' or more 'snap' ... ie. artefacts associated with the leading edge of transients being delivered more clearly?

Regards,

Andy

 

[Fox]

I refer to people who report things like a deeper more solid bass and "sweeter treble" -- this will be reflected in a visible change in measurements.

"More snap" and "aliveness" like more "slam" and "More Boogie" are anthropomorphisms more likely to be the product of fertile imaginations than anything measurable although it should be possible to display any changes that can account for such experiences (more "snap" can be attributed to an elevated midrange EQ -- in which case all RKR is achieving is a very convoluted form of EQ), also I'd like to see an AC waveform of a RKR "approved" mains feed (with and without equipment plugged into it), compared to the waveform of the usual non RKR mains... There are very definite things to look out for here -- lowered noise floor and harmonic distortion most easily measurable in the peaks and troughs of the AC Sine Wave itself.

If people are serious about these claims then back it up with something based on measurements and fact rather than how many "tings" someone experiences.

So, any takers?

 

[andyr]

I refer to people who report things like a deeper more solid bass and "sweeter treble" -- this will be reflected in a visible change in measurements.

"More snap" and "aliveness" like more "slam" and "More Boogie" are anthropomorphisms more likely to be the product of fertile imaginations than anything measurable although it should be possible to display any changes that can account for such experiences (more "snap" can be attributed to an elevated midrange EQ -- in which case all RKR is achieving is a very convoluted form of EQ), also I'd like to see an AC waveform of a RKR "approved" mains feed (with and without equipment plugged into it), compared to the waveform of the usual non RKR mains... There are very definite things to look out for here -- lowered noise floor and harmonic distortion most easily measurable in the peaks and troughs of the AC Sine Wave itself.

If people are serious about these claims then back it up with something based on measurements and fact rather than how many "tings" someone experiences.

So, any takers?

Not I, sport. IMO, that would be about as pointless as the situation of a Jehova's Witness trying to convince a devout Muslim that s/he will end up in hell unless they "convert".

Regards,

Andy

 

[Jo Sharp]

Unfortunately TF, what you are expecting to see in measurements won't show on a frequency response plot; which only shows gain vs frequency as you well know.

The ability of a system to resolve low-level detail is not going to measurable on such a blunt instrument.

Having changed from a multi-way fused/neoned socket strip to a dedicated consumer unit I am satisfied that there has been change for the better and good value for money for the £70 it cost me. I don't give a stuff if it can be measured or not. From an engineering viewpoint, I suspect that reducing impedances in the live, neutral and earth lines is in general beneficial to any system.

 

[Fox]

That's fine Jo, but I do give a stuff. I want to know where this effect is coming from and why.

So basically so far this thread has told me we have another wonderful effect that cannot be measured, that cannot be shown to exist and which cannot be represented empirically. All we can do is experience it and yet there is no proof of that experience.

One for the Journal I think.

 

[Michael L]

Fox

The results are audible but you don't believe it.

Fair enough, but if people are happy why not just let them be?

ATB

Mike

 

[Jo Sharp]

Have you read Ben Duncan's tomes on electrical supply for recording studios etc? Might steer you in the right direction.

Why are you getting hung up on measurements all of a sudden? Did you buy your turntable on the basis of measurements you performed or on its sound? And if you did measure it, how did you correlate the measurements of TT 'A' vs TT 'B' to their sound differences....ditto for your amps, stands, speakers etc.

 

[jonnoshore]

All we can do is experience it and yet there is no proof of that experience.

Fox,
That proof is available, just not in 'measured' form via a forum. I for one would welcome yourself or anyone from pfm via pm (+ a chat first via phone) to visit for an evening to have a beer and listen to some tunes. There is also a standard ring main socket at the rear of the HiFi which could be swopped in/out to show the effect of this 'magic'.

The Wizard Riches was here yesterday to cast some 'magic' spells on my system... All of them have sound engineering reasons (I have a Physics degrees and an Acoustics MSc) but would be extremely difficult to measure even with the correct equipment or test method. Quite frankly life is too short to worry! Fox and Bub etc.. I'm not sure what your 'agendas' are to try and discredit something which is clearly giving a lot of people that have had it installed 'correctly' enjoyment. At the end of yesterday both Roy and myself where extremely gob smacked... Roy actually said my Active SBL's were the best he had heard (well equal first with another RKR system... I am extremely happy with that (it got a 9-9.5 on Roy's scale). I was listening last night until my eyes couldn't stay open any longer, as soon as I was awake I've been listening until now (2 hours!).

All I know is before yesterday I was not totally happy with my RKR installation...When originally installed both Roy, myself and another PFMer that helped install it were not as impressed as we hoped (there was an improvement but not as large as expected)... I always had doubts that my std CD2 and std 102 were not up to the task of an active 250 system! Roy visited again (as he wasn't happy either) and did a number of tweaks, fitted my earth spike (2 m from CU), checked connections/closed contacts, balanced/set my 250's, repaired one 250, etc. over the whole day... We were both just playing CDs at the end. Enjoying the music... A very enjoyable day.

Now I am glad I had the installation performed. I would also be happy for any PFMers to hear my system just drop me a pm with your tel number and I'll call them... I'm in Essex ~40 minutes from London.

 

[Mike Reed]

Dedicated mains, Memeras and the like certainly improve the sonic controversy of a PF thread, n'est ce pas?

 

[PMR]

You know, you can get very nerdy about mains, cables and the like. In the end, it’s all about enjoying your system, rather than tinkering with it.

Now, back to my new iPod headphones.

Peter
Born to be a tinker

 

[S-Man]

Fwiw I think S-man is right - earthing is very important.

Here is a simplified explanation:
http://sound.westhost.com/earthing.htm
(see "Earth Loops")

Just because a system does not hum does not mean there is no signal or mains related intermodulation round this loop. This whole complex loop of grounding/earthing also (partially) explains why interconnect cables sound different.
I also believe it is a mistake to think that a mains transformer will somehow break this loop (other than at dc) or that a ground lift resistor is a total cure. Electrostatic coupling, magnetic coupling and RF pickup are the enemies here.

Thankfully I only have 2 mains connectinos to worry about, multiple sources and active systems must present some real issues - particularly if the active speakers plug into the mains at a different point on the ring main to the source equipment.