Brexit: give me a positive effect... X

[farfromthesun]

Conflating Brexit and Covid / vaccine roll out is dumb and pathetic.

 

[tonerei]

It must be a legal question. There are 27 countries having an opinion and the EU seems to be very consensus driven which makes it slow. This is a disadvantage, but in the end it might bring us together since people cooperate.

It is not the case that this approval should delay vaccinations since it is mostly logistics what matters and preparations for that are done.

What gives us continentals hard feelings is that the first batches of Pfizer went to the UK, whilst the UK government kept bashing the EU and praising its own procedures (mind you, a German designed vaccine, produced in Belgium). Nobody complained about it. We saw politicians twisting in all directions not to put the finger to the UK, but explaining us all kind of reasons why it did not matter that the UK was moving so fast - we had a different strategy et cetera et cetera.

Now it is our turn, AZ cuts down the EU deliveries. Investments done by the EU (apparently 300 million) does not seem to matter.

Personally, I have been hurt deeply by Brexit. This Vaccine row will be much more harmful on the continent. Brexit is acceptable since it is the own sovereign decision to move in that direction. But taking the vaccines reminds me of the Bengal famine. It is not just about the UK, but it affects us on an emotional level. It is seen here and won't go away easily.

I have been making jokes about it, but if the nationalists take the lead in coming elections this might indeed end up in war.

Wow well put and a completely different take on the current situation. I would never had considered that Europeans would look at it in this way.
Your words cut deeper to the heart of the nastiness and insular disease that is Brexit. Trying to articulate to Brexiteers on the path they have chosen and the potential and likely outcomes of their choice seems impossible but I think you have managed it. I expect it to go in one ear and fly out the other btw.

 

[Richard Lines]

Traditionally, the British tax authorities, and EU protectionism respectively.

Nothing has changed here wrt to charges for importing from outwith the UK/ EC. I used to buy stuff from DigiKey on a semi-regular basis and was much relieved when their ordering system altered to paying the import charges up front and not then being stung by an additional administration fee.

In the last month I imported some parts for a plasma cutter (recently bought at a farm auction sale and then discovering bits weren't readily available - lesson learnt!!!) from Australia.

The goods were valued at $446.15AUD. This attracted £12.05 of Customs Duty and £55.94 of VAT with a further (VAT free) administration charge of £12. A total of £79.99.

I guess this will be typical of any purchases made from Europe from now on although we should at least be able to buy the goods sans VAT in the first place.

Regards

Richard

 

[tonerei]

This looks like it was written by a hard remainer appeal to fellow travellers. Can you link to what was actually said and also where you scraped this?

As an aside, I’m not sure who on pfm has said the contributions were excessive, but outside of the insulated world of pfm members such as yourself, it could be said it was predictable that after 6 years of unnecessary tory austerity, which you probably helped enable, spending billions of £££ anywhere else while slashing services and attacking welfare payments wasn’t going to look great to quite a lot of people scratching around having to decide whether to go cold or eat. I guess in that context the contributions were excessive. It depends on how well insulated you are and I’m guessing you’re an ‘A’ on that score.

Whether it was written by a so called hard remainer or just a human being is irrelevant. Is it correct?

The rest of your post is just a daily cut and paste. Giving a view that you appear to be in a majority of one. Have never heard this argument being made by anybody outside of this thread and outside of yourself. A Unicorn possibly?

 

[Seeker_UK]

Whether it was written by a so called hard remainer or just a human being is irrelevant. Is it correct?

It depends on what you mean by "correct". Is the figure net or gross? Is it based on the value at the time or adjusted for inflation? Does it take into account what we will continue to pay?

This paper shows that something that could appear as a simple 'fact' (or tasty soundbite) is a very complex thing.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/up...tion-in-the-EU-Budget-Professor-Iain-Begg.pdf

[Edit]

From 2019 UK Govt Figures (https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7886/CBP-7886.pdf), total net contributions to the EU from 1973 to 2019 are:

• £166Bn (Cash)
  
  
• £225Bn (adjusted to 2019 figures) - close to the figure in the snippet (from Private Eye, I guess)

Adding in £8900M net contribution (the OBR estimate for 2020) (https://www.cgdev.org/publication/uks-fiscal-contribution-eu-budget-and-its-international-element#:~:text=The Office for Budget Responsibility,fulfilled under the Withdrawal Agreement.), the figures are approximately.

• £175Bn (Cash)
  
  
• £234Bn (adjusted, approx).

The NAO currently estimate that the cost of Covid-19 expenditure based on measures announced up to August 2020, (not loss to the economy) of £280Bn (inc known expenditure of £70Bn) (https://www.nao.org.uk/covid-19/cost-tracker/)

That figure may rise due to 2021 measures that were unplanned at the time.

However, using available figures and estimates, the UK's net contributions to the EU (either in cash terms or adjusted for 2019 values) are less than the Government has spent on measures to tackle Covid-19 and almost certainly a lot less when one takes into account the cost of loss to UK GDP as well.

 

[kabayiri]

...
What gives us continentals hard feelings is that the first batches of Pfizer went to the UK, whilst the UK government kept bashing the EU and praising its own procedures (mind you, a German designed vaccine, produced in Belgium). Nobody complained about it. We saw politicians twisting in all directions not to put the finger to the UK, but explaining us all kind of reasons why it did not matter that the UK was moving so fast - we had a different strategy et cetera et cetera.
...

There is a new dynamic in play which is much more important than disagreements on roll out timings.

The UK is the source of an aggressive variant (B.1.1.7). That's why we have some of the worst case rates and death rates in the world. Higher than any other part of Europe.

It's crucial in my view that the UK get on top of things. We simply can't afford for the rest of the EU to see this variant become commonplace there. I'd advocate for all EU and UK transport workers moving between to be early vaccine recipients.

I personally would apply the same logic to the South African situation. They should be a priority too IMO.

 

[lagavullin10y]

Wow well put and a completely different take on the current situation. I would never had considered that Europeans would look at it in this way.
Your words cut deeper to the heart of the nastiness and insular disease that is Brexit. Trying to articulate to Brexiteers on the path they have chosen and the potential and likely outcomes of their choice seems impossible but I think you have managed it. I expect it to go in one ear and fly out the other btw.

Lets hope the media & populists don't run away with it. Until now it is just the relatively trustworthy media in the Netherlands but imagine what happens once the equivalents of the Daily Filth start publishing. We have elections in 2 months time, Germany next year, and France in 2022.

I hope for the best. A few years ago I did see nationalism as something proud and good and being aware of ones roots, but now I see it as something very dangerous.

 

[tonerei]

Whether it was written by a so called hard remainer or just a human being is irrelevant. Is it correct?

The rest of your post is just a daily cut and paste. Giving a view that you appear to be in a majority of one. Have never heard this argument being made by anybody outside of this thread and outside of yourself. A Unicorn possibly?

Good point. One would need a few days to go through Iain Beggs papers. Of course to be exact one would need to put a huge amount into the calculations but on a basic level it does provide a quick comparison and puts some perspective on it. If you remember the red bus thing that CB still runs with was a big ad campaign for the Brexit side. The amount spent on Covid so far dwarfs this. One could suggest that the Brexit campaign completely oversold the amount paid as a contribution to membership. I don't think that is overstating it?

 

[richardg]

What's the logic there? Sounds like a JRM type response to a damning fact. Talk about something else and make it about life or death.

why is it damning? who does it damn?

 

[Brian]

Any moment now, Farage will pop up with his nicotine stained teeth crying “hands off our British vaccine!” He won’t be taking any of that German Pfizer BioNTec one, besides Turkish hands might have touched it. Gerard Rug-Batten, that other notable guard dog of Brexit won’t be taking any- he’s already told Boris “he can stick his vaccine up his arse” on Twitter. That’s a spare dose going for someone- now there’s a benefit of Brexit.

Nicotine stained teeth... Get your head back into that munchy box, man.

Just think, if you and your fellow tory govt enablers had done the right thing in 2010, and especially in 2015, nobody would have ever heard of brexit and 99.9% of your pfm posts would never have happened.

 

[tonerei]

why is it damning? who does it damn?

I had to search for that one. Amount spent on Covid compared to member contributions over 40yrs membership of the EU. Regardless of inflation etc one year spend on Covid is more. Damning in the context of the Brexiteer Farage/Bojo argument that you needed to be out as it was bad value? Think it is fairly self explanatory. Brexit argument was false and misleading imho?

 

[ff1d1l]

There is a new dynamic in play which is much more important than disagreements on roll out timings.

The UK is the source of an aggressive variant (B.1.1.7). That's why we have some of the worst case rates and death rates in the world. Higher than any other part of Europe.

It's crucial in my view that the UK get on top of things. We simply can't afford for the rest of the EU to see this variant become commonplace there. I'd advocate for all EU and UK transport workers moving between to be early vaccine recipients.

I personally would apply the same logic to the South African situation. They should be a priority too IMO.

Re your second paragraph.
AIUI the jury's out as to whether the UK is the source. If we are the source, it would surely be right to attribute a major part of the fault for this to our huge number of cases providing a fertile ground for mutation.

And responsibility for our huge case numbers and deaths do not lie with the variant, they lie with initial responses to the threat beyond pisspoor. Look at New Zealand - directly comparable politically and geographically. A democracy and an island. How are their cases doing?
Whats the difference here?
They had a competant leader who didnt prioritise naked profiteering over the health of the nation they were entrusted with.
Our huge number of deaths and cases are the responsibility of the government. There was NO NEED for them.

 

[Brian]

Conflating Brexit and Covid / vaccine roll out is dumb and pathetic.

No doubt if it made the UK look bad and the EU good you would not have made this post, though I suspect you would have posted something.

Whether it was written by a so called hard remainer or just a human being is irrelevant. Is it correct?

The rest of your post is just a daily cut and paste. Giving a view that you appear to be in a majority of one. Have never heard this argument being made by anybody outside of this thread and outside of yourself. A Unicorn possibly?

Which bit was cut and paste and which bit was incorrect? As a non-UK person I don’t expect you to understand why 17.4m voted to leave the EU, though I would have though after thousands of posts from you here you would have a better idea by now.

Good point. One would need a few days to go through Iain Beggs papers. Of course to be exact one would need to put a huge amount into the calculations but on a basic level it does provide a quick comparison and puts some perspective on it. If you remember the red bus thing that CB still runs with was a big ad campaign for the Brexit side. The amount spent on Covid so far dwarfs this. One could suggest that the Brexit campaign completely oversold the amount paid as a contribution to membership. I don't think that is overstating it?

I’m pleased you think you made a good point and saw fit to let yourself know. Trouble is, you didn’t.

Free tip: Slow down, son.

with the news that vaccine supply is tight, the Brexiters are revving up for a vaccine war with the EU.

Better get those Spitfires out of retirement.

You must be really glad you aren’t in the UK and not surrounded by such scum as those 17.4m who disagree with you. Pity their voice counts and yours is an irrelevance.

Is this economics for 9 year olds ?

You quoted the wrong Colin, wacko. The article posted by Colin L was infantile.

 

[droodzilla]

Posting this with some trepidation:

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1354019140084916225

If Peston is correct, the EU's intervention did delay signing of the contract with AZ by two months.

Only thought is that it's a big if. Peston is one of the worst journalists in the UK and regularly regurgitates government spin with zero critical analysis. Maybe he's doing the same here on behalf of AZ (and siding with the UK government in the process).

 

[TheDecameron]

Posting this with some trepidation:

Drood, please, we’ve had enough to manage with “shy Tories”. Be bold.

 

[kabayiri]

Re your second paragraph.
AIUI the jury's out as to whether the UK is the source. If we are the source, it would surely be right to attribute a major part of the fault for this to our huge number of cases providing a fertile ground for mutation.

And responsibility for our huge case numbers and deaths do not lie with the variant, they lie with initial responses to the threat beyond pisspoor. Look at New Zealand - directly comparable politically and geographically. A democracy and an island. How are their cases doing?
Whats the difference here?
They had a competant leader who didnt prioritise naked profiteering over the health of the nation they were entrusted with.
Our huge number of deaths and cases are the responsibility of the government. There was NO NEED for them.

We are miles away from NZ in the handling of the virus. I have to be realistic. None of us can change things now. I'm not here to go over the old ground of mismanagement. It's been done to exhaustion.

It's still the case that the vaccine is the best plan we have for increasing immunity and reducing transmission levels overall.

Stop B117 from making inroads into mainland Europe, and we help them just as much.

 

[farfromthesun]

No doubt if it made the UK look bad and the EU good you would not have made this post, though I suspect you would have posted something.

Which bit about 100,000 deaths is good?

 

[SteveS1]

Posting this with some trepidation:

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1354019140084916225

If Peston is correct, the EU's intervention did delay signing of the contract with AZ by two months.

Only thought is that it's a big if - Peston is one of the worst journalists in the UK and regularly regurgitates government spin with zero critical analysis. Maybe he's doing the same here on behalf of AZ (and siding with the UK government in the process).

As I understand it, the contracts (UK and EU) bound the price and quantities but not the delivery runs. Which is interesting. The purchase power is reflected in the costs for both AZ and Pfizer by the look of it. The UK paying £3 per dose (AZ) and the EU £1.59. For the Pfizer vaccine UK is paying £15 v EU £10.60.

 

[kabayiri]

As I understand it, the contracts (UK and EU) bound the price and quantities but not the delivery runs. Which is interesting. The purchase power is reflected in the costs for both AZ and Pfizer by the look of it. The UK paying £3 per dose (AZ) and the EU £1.59. For the Pfizer vaccine UK is paying £15 v EU £10.60.

India is trying to get Serum to reduce the standard cost of the vaccine down from $3.40 per dose. To vaccinate the adult population at that level is about $5bn.

Interestingly, India's space program has a budget of $4bn. I guess it's all about priorities.

 

[ff1d1l]

We are miles away from NZ in the handling of the virus. I have to be realistic. None of us can change things now. I'm not here to go over the old ground of mismanagement. It's been done to exhaustion.

It's still the case that the vaccine is the best plan we have for increasing immunity and reducing transmission levels overall.

Stop B117 from making inroads into mainland Europe, and we help them just as much.

It was specifically your second paragraph I took issue with, and the free pass it gave to the government regarding graft and incompetence. As I said, there is no need to be where we are now, and I have no patience with tory apologists trying to rewrite history.