Brexit: give me a positive effect... X

[kabayiri]

The typical worker today "at the lower end" is deunionised, precarious, in a very poor bargaining position. Corbyn's Labour was all over this and that was part of its appeal to young people. Don't know where you're getting your take from (well, media).

My take.
The food business of days gone by, was low paid work in pretty basic conditions, done by local people.
The business units my cousin bought were majority Eastern European workers. More men as I recall. It certainly looked tidier; I think safety was pretty good.
They kept costs down by charging for accommodation (in fact it was board really). That way you get people who are local to the factory, and you can make a bit on the accommodation side.

Customers in the UK don't really value food, and it's an ongoing challenge to keep costs down. If we invest in automation, we could further reduce the overheads, but that's capital intensive.

 

[PsB]

AIUI, "opt out" was always part of the EU directive, not something the UK had unilaterally put in place.

[edit]

individual opt-out

• Member States may allow an individual worker to opt-out from maximum weekly working time subject to strict conditions on the worker's consent, in particular the fact that he/she should not suffer any detriment if he/she refuses to opt-out, and to specific provisions on retaining records of opt-out decisions

https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205

And yet, they still opposed it! The conditions of these opt-outs must have been too onerous for them.

 

[PsB]

I don't: what the EU wants is barely relevant. I'm saying we don't derive our rights as workers from the EU, but it suits a surprising number of people to pretend that we do.

The UK has left the EU, so your statement is tautological.

 

[Seeker_UK]

And yet, they still opposed it! The conditions of these opt-outs must have been too onerous for them.

Extra work to administer and, as your typical worker is unlikely to opt-out (they're lazy b**gers), in practice it's as good as an imposed limit.

 

[Seanm]

Sorry, but that is just bullshit! Brexit is a total disaster for small business. It could never be anything else. You’d understand this very clearly if you actually ran one!

When all this coronavirus stuff is over I’ll happily invite you up to the grim working class north as I suspect from the way you write, how loyally you backed Corbyn etc, you have little if any clue what the ‘red wall’ towns and cities are actually like or what attitudes are prevalent. Sadly Farage understood it perfectly and knew exactly how to mobilise low-achieving working people with envy and xenophobia. As of course does Trump.

PS FWIW small business is represented by no political party. The Tories just don’t care as they chase the oligarch and corporate money, and Labour are so stodgy and slow-moving they are still fighting the mass-labour battles of the early 20th century (if they can be bothered to fight or oppose anything).

Seriously, stop blaming this on the red wall, it's bullshit. Brexit was not engineered or supported by working people or by the left.

The UKIP base was small business owners and pensioners.

 

[Seanm]

The UK has left the EU, so your statement is tautological.

And yours is pedantic.

"Did". Better?

 

[PsB]

My take.
The food business of days gone by, was low paid work in pretty basic conditions, done by local people.
The business units my cousin bought were majority Eastern European workers. More men as I recall. It certainly looked tidier; I think safety was pretty good.
They kept costs down by charging for accommodation (in fact it was board really). That way you get people who are local to the factory, and you can make a bit on the accommodation side.

Customers in the UK don't really value food, and it's an ongoing challenge to keep costs down. If we invest in automation, we could further reduce the overheads, but that's capital intensive.

Tough one, eh?
What will it be, Ukrainians or South Asians?

 

[PsB]

And yours is pedantic.

"Did". Better?

Better of course, but IMV it makes your statement incorrect. You just have to see how much energy and political capital successive British governments and employer organisations have invested into exiting EU regulations in this area to see these directives were clearly perceived as a constraint.

I agree that EU directives just provide a baseline level of protection. Unions are of course important to secure better than minimum protections for their members and for workers in general, but this is usually most successful at a national level.

 

[kabayiri]

Tough one, eh?
What will it be, Ukrainians or South Asians?

I've no idea now. Not my concern anymore.

Knowing my cousin, the decision won't be based on charitable concerns or a collective sense of welfare.
But what do you value? Jobs or principals?

 

[Tony L]

Seriously, stop blaming this on the red wall, it's bullshit. Brexit was not engineered or supported by working people or by the left.

Again with the Corbyn reality distortion bubble! The only possible explanation for your position would be that there was a massive ‘Invasion Of The Body Snatchers’ event where huge swathes of ultra-solid working class Labour voters were suddenly possessed by millions of Tory pensioners. I’m sorry, but it is just bollocks. Look at the vote results both for Brexit and for the last election. Huge, huge numbers of employed and unemployed working class folk went for Brexit, Farage and Johnson. They were the ones that flipped, the pensioners/Gillian Duffys always had some of that mindset. As I say I live in this area. As does Lordsummit. We live only a mile or so apart, my seat held Labour, his went Tory after almost falling to UKIP in the previous election. We see the dynamic in a way Islington Labour never will!

As I say, come up sometime, have a free reality check!

 

[Seeker_UK]

Brexit was not engineered or supported by working people or by the left.

Not to the same degree as the right but some support was there where it mattered, at the vote.

Unless, of course, those Labour and Green 'leave' voters are not proper left-wingers or there were no working people in the Conservatives or UKIP.

 

[SteveS1]

All very beautiful, in theory. The fewer trade barriers, though of course important, is the only one with any practical credence.

None of that is theory, that fact that you prefer to believe otherwise is irrelevent.

Who said anything about isolation. Not being part of the EU hasn't harmed the US, Australia, NZ, Singapore, Taiwan etc, etc, etc.

Being part of the EU has benefitted us significantly and those specious comparisons don't change that. An Australian take on "Australia deal".

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/ne...-watch-you-wish-for-warns-last-australian-pm/

I must admit as Brexit chickens come home to roost your little digs just get more amusing. But why should anyone care what you think when you are already on record as saying no amount of economic damage would change your opinion. Against that sort of stupidity it's a waste of energy. With you it's pure Bone type dogma.

 

[Seanm]

Again with the Corbyn reality distortion bubble! The only possible explanation for your position would be that there was a massive ‘Invasion Of The Body Snatchers’ event where huge swathes of ultra-solid working class Labour voters were suddenly possessed by millions of Tory pensioners. I’m sorry, but it is just bollocks. Look at the vote results both for Brexit and for the last election. Huge, huge numbers of employed and unemployed working class folk went for Brexit, Farage and Johnson. They were the ones that flipped, the pensioners/Gillian Duffys always had some of that mindset. As I say I live in this area. As does Lordsummit. We live only a mile or so apart, my seat held Labour, his went Tory after almost falling to UKIP in the previous election. We see the dynamic in a way Islington Labour never will!

As I say, come up sometime, have a free reality check!

I keep giving you the data on this, and you keep saying it’s wrong because I live in Islington (I don’t). Believe what you want I guess.

 

[PsB]

I've no idea now. Not my concern anymore.

Knowing my cousin, the decision won't be based on charitable concerns or a collective sense of welfare.
But what do you value? Jobs or principals?

Ha, good one.
I value a fair balance between jobs, corporate success, shareholder returns and the interests of society in general. Principles help to identify and achieve the right balance.

 

[Seanm]

Not to the same degree as the right but some support was there where it mattered, at the vote.

Unless, of course, those Labour and Green 'leave' voters are not proper left-wingers or there were no working people in the Conservatives or UKIP.

The key points here are the relationship between age and class, and who actually bothered to vote. I mean if I wanted to pull out the data to make my point to Tony, again, I would include this table.

 

[eisenach]

A list of businesses that supported Leave / paid for this shıt, just in case you wish to boycot them :

JD Wetherspoon
Reebok
Phones4U
Patisserie Valerie
JML
Argent Group Foyles
Noved
Numis Securities
C Hoare & Co
Odey Asset Management
Lord Kalms (Dixons Retail)
Dyson
JCB
Tate & Lyle
Butlins
Next
Pizza Express (former boss, Luke Johnson)
International Motors (Subaru, Citroen, Isuzu)
...
http://www.eumemes.eu/brexit-boycott-lists.html

Damn ! I'll have to buy my next digger from someone else !

 

[Seeker_UK]

The key points here are the relationship between age and class, and who actually bothered to vote. I mean if I wanted to pull out the data to make my point to Tony, again, I would include this table.

OK, the general trend was for older, less educated, less affluent, right-wing leaning voters to have voted leave but my point still stands that your absolute assertion that "Brexit was not engineered or supported by working people or by the left." is not supported by the data. The 'left' is not free from blame on this.

 

[SteveS1]

Not to the same degree as the right but some support was there where it mattered, at the vote.

Unless, of course, those Labour and Green 'leave' voters are not proper left-wingers or there were no working people in the Conservatives or UKIP.

It's the 5 Kipper Remain that always amuses me about that graphic.

 

[kabayiri]

Ha, good one.
I value a fair balance between jobs, corporate success, shareholder returns and the interests of society in general. Principles help to identify and achieve the right balance.

I don't disagree with the ambition of balance.
I just don't know an easy way to get there. I'm a bit lost at how UK saw itself inside the EU really.

If I go back to my food example, if we all valued food more, and paid a bit more for the quality items, we would be able to pay people more and improve production standards.

But we just don't. I was always impressed when I went to the French offices, just how good the shared restaurant /canteen was at lunchtime. But, French employees had to pay a decent whack, no doubt. Look at your average UK canteen. It's not great, and not very healthy.

 

[Seanm]

OK but my point still stands that your absolute assertion that "Brexit was not engineered or supported by working people or by the left." is not supported by the data.

It definitely had *some* support from working people. That’s the absolute limit to what I’ll concede!