Brexit: give me a positive effect... X

[kabayiri]

To be fair he has a point, British fish probably are happy, at the moment, because they're not being caught.

Crabs used to get quite stressed on the journey over to parts of Europe. Not really designed to be happy travellers.
I did wonder how you monitored stress levels in a crab, but you can it seems.

 

[Seanm]

I suspect not.

Not to bang on, but why would leavers be appalled by this? This is what they wanted and the government's actions here are designed to let them know that they're getting it. Like all the rest of the Brexit dividend I suspect it will in the long run turn out to be bullshit.

 

[ks.234]

I'm not a leaver, but we don't owe our working rights to the EU, we owe them largely to the efforts of people such as yourself, in the unions. This particular right is a case in point:

The rule is already honoured in the breach as much as in the observance. I'm not saying it's not important, but it's as a negotiating tool rather than some kind of absolute protection. Unions should definitely fight to keep it, but if they can't it will be because they are too weak, rather than because we've slipped out of the EU's benevolent care. There are no workers' rights that aren't won and ultimately protected by workers.

Yes, agree with all of that, just to say my post was aimed at those who, when discussing the likely negative impact of Brexit on workers rights, insisted that workers rights were better protected by the UK government. As you say, no government is genuinely interested in workers rights, but the idea that this government is more interested than any other is risible.

 

[ks.234]

MAGA, MEGA.

Let’s call the whole thing off.

 

[Seeker_UK]

Who'd have thought that Brexit would lead to lower labour protection standards? I am shocked, shocked.

Mumble, mumble, something about junior doctors can't train properly with 48hr weeks, save the NHS, mumble, mumble...

 

[Tony L]

Not to bang on, but why would leavers be appalled by this? This is what they wanted and the government's actions here are designed to let them know that they're getting it. Like all the rest of the Brexit dividend I suspect it will in the long run turn out to be bullshit.

It is clearly what those who funded Brexit paid for, but certainly not what many of those who were duped by the whole scam wanted. Huge swathes of the fallen ‘red wall’ who voted ‘leave’ and popularist far-right (Brexit Party or Tory) are very likely conventional employees and will pay a very high price indeed for not thinking things through.

Meanwhile “hard remainers” get to see *exactly* what they said would happen play out...

 

[ks.234]

Not to bang on, but why would leavers be appalled by this? This is what they wanted and the government's actions here are designed to let them know that they're getting it. Like all the rest of the Brexit dividend I suspect it will in the long run turn out to be bullshit.

As a dividend for the majority of working people, yes, it’s bullshit. But for the small number who financed Brexit in order to further exploit diminished rights for workers, it’s a promise fulfilled

 

[Seanm]

It is what those who funded Brexit wanted, but certainly not what many of those who were duped by the whole scam wanted. Huge swathes of the fallen ‘red wall’ who voted ‘leave’ and popularist far-right (Brexit Party or Tory) are very likely conventional employees and will pay a very high price indeed for not thinking things through.

Meanwhile “hard remainers” get to see *exactly* what they said would happen play out...

The main leave constituency is small business owners and their sympathisers, and they want this. The smaller, working class constituency is made up of people who are retired and think that young people are lazy scroungers who don't know the meaning of hard work, and they want this too. The odd working class leaver who actually works probably doesn't get much in the way of protection from the rule in any case.

 

[Seeker_UK]

As a dividend for the majority of working people, yes, it’s bullshit. But for the small number who financed Brexit in order to further exploit diminished rights for workers, it’s a promise fulfilled

Based on a limited sample of three (my Dad, Mrs Seeker's ex-husband and my mate Dave) the 48hr rule was more of a limit on the overtime they could work for than a boon for extra leisure time. Of course, the correct answer is pay better and don't force them to do overtime to make a living wage.

The ones that will suffer are salaried staff who by and large do the hours w/out the ability to be reimbursed.

 

[Seanm]

As a dividend for the majority of working people, yes, it’s bullshit. But for the small number who financed Brexit in order to further exploit diminished rights for workers, it’s a promise fulfilled

I mean it's bullshit in the sense that it's not fulfilled, and probably never will be. Honestly, it's in the same category of Brexit BS as brilliant deals with the US or whatever, it's just that it suits liberals to believe this one because they blame the left for Brexit and they think they're rubbing our noses in it.

 

[PsB]

I'm not a leaver, but we don't owe our working rights to the EU, we owe them largely to the efforts of people such as yourself, in the unions. This particular right is a case in point:

The rule is already honoured in the breach as much as in the observance. I'm not saying it's not important, but it's as a negotiating tool rather than some kind of absolute protection. Unions should definitely fight to keep it, but if they can't it will be because they are too weak, rather than because we've slipped out of the EU's benevolent care. There are no workers' rights that aren't won and ultimately protected by workers.

I struggle to understand your point here: you say UK workers don't owe their working rights to the EU, then add a clipping that shows the EU Parliament voted in 2008 to scrap an opt-out the UK had previously secured (under Major) to ensure British voters could still be made to work longer than 48 hours. The EUP vote ensured the Working Time Directive applied also to British workers. In my limited understanding of these things, this brought additional rights to British workers, and directly against the wishes of the British (New Lab) government of the time. Confirmation of this to be seen in the vociferous opposition of the CBI and every other employer's union, who went to work to undermine this ruling with "voluntary" opt-outs etc.

 

[ks.234]

Yes, but what that did mean that there was such a thing as overtime, for which you were usually paid extra. No more it seems

Also, we always had an opt out. Famously, doctors have to opt out and end up working 79 plus hours a week. The question is, is this a good thing, either for the workers, doctors in this case, or the end user, the patients?

 

[kabayiri]

The main leave constituency is small business owners and their sympathisers, and they want this. The smaller, working class constituency is made up of people who are retired and think that young people are lazy scroungers who don't know the meaning of hard work, and they want this too. The odd working class leaver who actually works probably doesn't get much in the way of protection from the rule in any case.

What is a "typical" worker nowadays? Especially at the lower end of the market.
I can compare a couple of food production businesses. One from the 70s/80s I knew well based in the NW; and two that my cousin bought in the West Yorks corridor.
There is no comparison in the staff at all, and the market sector was broadly similar.
I think Labour were stuck in the mindset of the former, when "Jeremy was in his youthful prime".

 

[Seanm]

I struggle to understand your point here: you say UK workers don't owe their working rights to the EU, then add a clipping that shows the EU Parliament voted in 2008 to scrap an opt-out the UK had previously secured (under Major) to ensure British voters could still be made to work longer than 48 hours. The EUP vote ensured the Working Time Directive applied also to British workers. In my limited understanding of these things, this brought additional rights to British workers. A clear sign that this was the case was the vociferous opposition of the CBI and every other employer's union, who went to work to undermine this ruling with "voluntary" opt-outs etc.

We get workers rights because unions and socialists fight for them, not because the EU wants to protect us.

Meant to include, for context:

From gov.uk, today.

 

[Seanm]

What is a "typical" worker nowadays? Especially at the lower end of the market.
I can compare a couple of food production businesses. One from the 70s/80s I knew well based in the NW; and two that my cousin bought in the West Yorks corridor.
There is no comparison in the staff at all, and the market sector was broadly similar.
I think Labour were stuck in the mindset of the former, when "Jeremy was in his youthful prime".

The typical worker today "at the lower end" is deunionised, precarious, in a very poor bargaining position. Corbyn's Labour was all over this and that was part of its appeal to young people. Don't know where you're getting your take from (well, media).

 

[Tony L]

The main leave constituency is small business owners and their sympathisers, and they want this. The smaller, working class constituency is made up of people who are retired and think that young people are lazy scroungers who don't know the meaning of hard work, and they want this too. The odd working class leaver who actually works probably doesn't get much in the way of protection from the rule in any case.

Sorry, but that is just bullshit! Brexit is a total disaster for small business. It could never be anything else. You’d understand this very clearly if you actually ran one!

When all this coronavirus stuff is over I’ll happily invite you up to the grim working class north as I suspect from the way you write, how loyally you backed Corbyn etc, you have little if any clue what the ‘red wall’ towns and cities are actually like or what attitudes are prevalent. Sadly Farage understood it perfectly and knew exactly how to mobilise low-achieving working people with envy and xenophobia. As of course does Trump.

PS FWIW small business is represented by no political party. The Tories just don’t care as they chase the oligarch and corporate money, and Labour are so stodgy and slow-moving they are still fighting the mass-labour battles of the early 20th century (if they can be bothered to fight or oppose anything).

 

[PsB]

We get workers rights because unions and socialists fight for them, not because the EU wants to protect us.

Meant to include, for context:

From gov.uk, today.

I know, I mentioned "voluntary" opt-outs - the little " " signs indicate skepticism or sarcasm. This is the UK government actively working to minimize or gut an EU directive on working time that it didn't want, one where it was overruled by the EUP. Why are you surprised, and how do you twist that into "the EU doesn't want to protect workers"? Bizarre.

 

[Seeker_UK]

Confirmation of this to be seen in the vociferous opposition of the CBI and every other employer's union, who went to work to undermine this ruling with "voluntary" opt-outs etc.

AIUI, "opt out" was always part of the EU directive, not something the UK had unilaterally put in place.

[edit]

individual opt-out

• Member States may allow an individual worker to opt-out from maximum weekly working time subject to strict conditions on the worker's consent, in particular the fact that he/she should not suffer any detriment if he/she refuses to opt-out, and to specific provisions on retaining records of opt-out decisions

https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205

 

[eternumviti]

What do you mean nimbler? Less regulated, lower standards, poorer protection, reduced rights, more malleable population with fewer choices?

Do you give any credence to economy of scale, bulk purchasing power, fewer trade barriers, pooled resource, shared facilities and services?

All very beautiful, in theory. The fewer trade barriers, though of course important, is the only one with any practical credence.

Too much of your slip has shown this week in terms of your Brexit motivation. The same arguments apply in both situations. Isolation is a backward step with almost totally negative consequences.

Who said anything about isolation. Not being part of the EU hasn't harmed the US, Australia, NZ, Singapore, Taiwan etc, etc, etc.

Can any of the Brexiteers on here who proclaimed that worker rights are better protected outside the EU explain this....?

Here's some more light reading from the FT about the enhanced worker's protection rights in the EU.

https://www.ft.com/content/7b77ec15-7384-42d0-9da0-76c4b7f0872b

Even by your loose standards, EV, this is desperate stuff. More or less completely fact free, too. Your obsession with Germany is frankly pathetic.

Ok, so I made up the regulation numbers (NSS*). What else is fact free?

Tell me in your own words why the EU took so much longer than the UK to approve the vaccine, and start getting it into peoples' arms, if you would.

Plus Germany nicking the EU pile of vaccines. Yes, the ones they'd invented, tested and developed (with Pfizer) in record time and made available to the whole world.

During its recent period as rotating president of the EU back in June, Germany promoted a common EU purchasing strategy for anti-covid vaccines as they were approved and produced. The terms agreed state that the member states would not 'launch their own procedures for advance purchase of that vaccine with the same manufacturers'. There were to be, in Ursula von der Leyen's words 'no parallel negotiations or parallel contracts'.

In September Germany quietly bought an extra 30 million doses in a bilateral deal with Pfizer/BioNtech.

 

[Seanm]

I know, I mentioned "voluntary" opt-outs - the little " " signs indicate skepticism or sarcasm. This is the UK government actively working to minimize or gut an EU directive on working time that it didn't want, one where it was overruled by the EUP. Why are you surprised, and how do you twist that into "the EU doesn't want to protect workers"? Bizarre.

I don't: what the EU wants is barely relevant. I'm saying we don't derive our rights as workers from the EU, but it suits a surprising number of people to pretend that we do.