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Vast Brexit thread merge part IV

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matthewr said:
Although given how often in this debate we are reminded of the "will of the people" if the 17.4m covers a plurality of views and opinions then it is at least relevant.
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I have never used the term ‘the will of the people’. Perhaps ask the question of someone who has?
 
richgilb said:
Regarding the 1st point, well it may be in the post. Regarding the 2nd, that is a common Brexiteer position I think. And Brexit may never have happened were it perceived to be just that. But it will never happen. And I guess it s not that important for you , otherwise you might be more brexit-sympathetic?

Regarding the French lesson, whatever.

As you are happy going off on tangents, you won't mind my minor digression...wasn't there another taxi drive on here a few years back...but he was a Tory?
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No I would not be more Brexit sympathetic because Brexiteers tend to get hung up on such abstract principles devoid of any proportionality or reference.

Even if administration costs accounted for 7 or even 10% of the total budget it would still account for diddly squat for the UK tax payer. An extra tuppence a day per person? I really couldn't give a flying.

If it was costing me, say, an extra tenner a day, I might sit up.

It is the same with the Brexiteers who say they would rather be poorer and free.

I say, how much poorer are you prepared to be and how much freer will you be? They can't answer that because their position is abstract and absolute.

This is the divide: the abstract versus the concrete, the absolute versus the relative.

Regarding the French lesson, there was no French lesson. The word 'europhobe' could be used in English and it would be more accurate. I guess we use 'eurosceptic' as a kind of euphemism, in the way that 'friendly fire' is a euphemism.

The French clearly prefer to tell it as it is.

Regarding the Tory taxi driver, democracy includes the right to change your mind.

I guess I am a Tory in a Michael Heseltine/Dominic Grieve/Kenneth Clarke kind of way but equally I could be a Labour man in a Keir Starmer/Yvette Cooper/Tom Watson kind of way.
 
eternumviti said:
Leavers understood perfectly, or this one did.

The EU is a doctrine, a theology, one tightly bound by legal construct.
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And it is run by the EUliminati, the Grandmaster of which is none other than ****** ****** and not JCJ as widely misunderstood. The fact that crackpots and manipulators of the thick are prepared to spout this stuff is a bit of a joke. That poster put out by Banks- “we didn’t fight two world wars to be...” is symptomatic of the disease. That particular imbecile didn’t even exist in sperm form until decades after.
I imagine the preoccupation with Germany in the Brexit jerk circle is entirely down to destructive envy and the need to goad Germany into reciprocal criticism.
 
richgilb said:
I think the referendum meant might be a deal, might be no deal. So you needed to be ok with no deal. Not sure enough people were thinking that. One reason why I support a second referendum.
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You support a second referendum to abort your first decision or to stick it to the man in Strasbourg again? How will you be voting once you get your wish?
 
TheDecameron said:
And it is run by the EUliminati, the Grandmaster of which is none other than ****** ****** and not JCJ as widely misunderstood. The fact that crackpots and manipulators of the thick are prepared to spout this stuff is a bit of a joke. That poster put out by Banks- “we didn’t fight two world wars to be...” is symptomatic of the disease. That particular imbecile didn’t even exist in sperm form until decades after.
I imagine the preoccupation with Germany in the Brexit jerk circle is entirely down to destructive envy and the need to goad Germany into reciprocal criticism.
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TheDecameron said:
And it is run by the EUliminati, the Grandmaster of which is none other than ****** ****** and not JCJ as widely misunderstood. The fact that crackpots and manipulators of the thick are prepared to spout this stuff is a bit of a joke. That poster put out by Banks- “we didn’t fight two world wars to be...” is symptomatic of the disease. That particular imbecile didn’t even exist in sperm form until decades after.
I imagine the preoccupation with Germany in the Brexit jerk circle is entirely down to destructive envy and the need to goad Germany into reciprocal criticism.
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And back on planet earth the smiles from the EU negotiators would suggest we are not leaving and will continue to be shackled by a modified May deal.
 
TheDecameron said:
You support a second referendum to abort your first decision or to stick it to the man in Strasbourg again? How will you be voting once you get your wish?
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I wont vote, Dec. Said it loads before, I don't mind if we remain. Loads of you mind more than I do about the outcome. Best to leave the ones that really care to it. I will navigate around whatever hurdles come my way.
 
richgilb said:
I wont vote, Dec. Said it loads before, I don't mind if we remain. Loads of you mind more than I do about the outcome. Best to leave the ones that really care to it. I will navigate around whatever hurdles come my way.
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Do you really have no preference?

If it comes to it would you sell your vote?

We could crowdfund it.
 
Nic Robinson said:
Forgive me. I hadn't noticed you being positive about the EU nor the arguments to remain. So how did you vote?
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Hi Nic,

It’s true I haven’t seen many good arguments here for remaining, most appear based on simple belief in the project, emotion or fear, but there are positives of EU membership.

I’ve mentioned EU funded projects many times. For example, I believe you are in the NW.
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/17-things-european-funding-done-10925208

I’m from Newcastle. The Angel Of The North was funded by EU money. There are loads of examples.

Do you really think I’m unaware of positives of EU membership because there are some aspects of the project which I don’t support?

On the second point. The referendum was a private ballot and this is a forum of adults, not kids. I believe the notion of individual choice is supported here, yes? How I voted is not the business of anyone on the planet who may view pfm, so I believe it acceptable for me to choose to keep that to myself.
 
Brian said:
I have never used the term ‘the will of the people’. Perhaps ask the question of someone who has?
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Although the point of the term is to avoid difficult questions about how we might "justify or explain" how people voted and instead just insist it was, for want of a better phrase, a simple binary choice of Leave vs Remain.

Indeed I would suggest the entire shit show of the last three years has been precisely because of this ambiguity in the definition of Leave. Indeed, per Cummings, a major part of the Leave strategy was to not specify what it meant so that the maximum number of people would vote for it based on their own interpretation of what it meant.
 
Brian said:
I mostly agree.

I would add, ahead of the referendum nobody representing the leave campaign was in a position to deliver on anything, Cameron was PM, he campaigned for remain and was expected to make the decisions. Whatever xy and z mentioned by the leave campaign, people voting leave had to be accepting of no deal, or accepting of whatever was the leave deal. It can’t be otherwise despite the appeals of remainers that there are 17.4 million ways to leave.

In general, from what I heard during debates at the time I believe leave voters assumed, incorrectly as it turns out, that UK govt and the EU would be intelligent enough to agree a mutually acceptable way for the UK to leave. Having left the EU, I think the expectation was the UK would pursue relationships wherever it wants to and is able. This has not happened for a number of reasons, some of which are best not mentioned here but it has caused over 3 years of stagnation and uncertainty.


Matthew, See above for the first bit, though I don’t presume to speak for 17.4m people. It’s not my responsibility to justify or explain why anybody voted how they did.

I am really not bothered what Baker, Rees-Mogg and Farage have to say in 2019 and I had no interest in them ahead of the referendum. I don’t care if they are disobeying the referendum result or not, nor do I see any point in even thinking about it. Sorry, but I am not going to play the endless remainer game of coming with excuse after excuse why the result should be ignored. I simply don’t agree with what hard-remainers have been doing since the referendum.
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It's these Hard Remainers again. What are they, some sort of biker gang who want to stay in the EU? An EU-friendly heavy metal act? A double-act who threaten to beat up leavers? (The Stay twins?).
 
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