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Vast Brexit thread merge part IV

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Stunsworth said:
The reason there was no 'type of remain' on the ballot paper is pretty straightforward. Remain meant continuing the current relationship with the EEC/EU. As we've seen over the last two years there are lots of different ways of leaving - and some of those you now say aren't really leave despite the public being told that they were before the referendum.
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Well, the fact the EU was to change dramatically, meaning the effect of remaining was to change dramatically should have been honestly stated so the electorate knew what they were voting for. It wasn’t and the electorate didn’t.
 
Brian said:
Well, the fact the EU was to change dramatically, meaning the effect of remaining was to change dramatically should have been honestly stated so the electorate knew what they were voting for. It wasn’t and the electorate didn’t.
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That's the nature of life. And remember the UK were involved in the making of those changes. Some they chose to implement, others they didn't.
 
matthewr said:
So which type of leave did we vote for?
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Round and round we go. The question was remain or leave, I linked to it earlier, no deals were mentioned as part of the question, voting leave means leaving without any deal.

You’re clutching at that straw hard-remainers simply can’t let go.
 
Brian said:
Round and round we go. The question was remain or leave, I linked to it earlier, no deals were mentioned as part of the question, voting leave means leaving without any deal.

You’re clutching at that straw hard-remainers simply can’t let go.
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I think the referendum meant might be a deal, might be no deal. So you needed to be ok with no deal. Not sure enough people were thinking that. One reason why I support a second referendum.
 
Brian said:
Round and round we go. The question was remain or leave, I linked to it earlier, no deals were mentioned as part of the question, voting leave means leaving without any deal.

You’re clutching at that straw hard-remainers simply can’t let go.
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In a General Election, the ballot paper just states the candidate name and their party. Just because the manifesto isn’t spelled out on the ballot, doesn’t mean voters don’t make their choice with reference to it, nor that parties don’t make an implicit contract to honour their manifesto and related campaigning promises.

So what was said by the parties during the campaign, and in their statements of record, is absolutely germane.
 
Brian said:
Round and round we go. The question was remain or leave, I linked to it earlier, no deals were mentioned as part of the question, voting leave means leaving without any deal.
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So you are saying that all the people who voted to Leave voted for a No Deal WTO exit?

Does this not mean that everyone apart from ardent No Dealers like Steve Baker, Rees-Mogg and Farage has been disobeying the referendum vote by trying to make a deal with the EU?
 
richgilb said:
Lol.

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant Lame. What you also didn't buy into was someone rocking up in the 90s, telling you that if you want to change your 1973 salmon pink bathroom suite avec bidet you must do this, this and this.
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Lame yourself. Regulation is a fact of life. Get used to it, there's no aspect of your life that's free from it. As far as rules and regulations about changing a bathroom go, have you never had a wife?
 
richgilb said:
I refer you to your post 329 where you selected 8 in Steven Toy's list: 'Use our influence to reform the EU.' If you don't have any ideas on what reforms you would like to see, what are you actually talking about?
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I chose (8) because I feel that the UK could have done more to shape the EU and in a way that meant we were less hateful of it and could have avoided this whole f**king mess. I am sure there are areas it definitely needs reforming but this is based on my knowledge of large government organisations where they always need reform; I don't have the arrogance to presume I know all about the EU and where it goes wrong in the detail.

richgilb said:
Just seeing red every time a leave voter posts anything, I presume.
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Try not to let it get to you. Regardless of your POV, what we post are solid gold nuggets of breathtaking acuity based on objective logic; everyone else posts reactionary b***ocks.
 
Brian said:
Round and round we go. The question was remain or leave, I linked to it earlier, no deals were mentioned as part of the question, voting leave means leaving without any deal.

You’re clutching at that straw hard-remainers simply can’t let go.
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I think this revisionist binary nonsense has been comprehensively destroyed up thread only today.

Anything short of blocking up.the Channel Tunnel thwarts the referendum result?
 
richgilb said:
I think the referendum meant might be a deal, might be no deal. So you needed to be ok with no deal. Not sure enough people were thinking that. One reason why I support a second referendum.
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I mostly agree.

I would add, ahead of the referendum nobody representing the leave campaign was in a position to deliver on anything, Cameron was PM, he campaigned for remain and was expected to make the decisions. Whatever xy and z mentioned by the leave campaign, people voting leave had to be accepting of no deal, or accepting of whatever was the leave deal. It can’t be otherwise despite the appeals of remainers that there are 17.4 million ways to leave.

In general, from what I heard during debates at the time I believe leave voters assumed, incorrectly as it turns out, that UK govt and the EU would be intelligent enough to agree a mutually acceptable way for the UK to leave. Having left the EU, I think the expectation was the UK would pursue relationships wherever it wants to and is able. This has not happened for a number of reasons, some of which are best not mentioned here but it has caused over 3 years of stagnation and uncertainty.

matthewr said:
So you are saying that all the people who voted to Leave voted for a No Deal WTO exit?

Does this not mean that everyone apart from ardent No Dealers like Steve Baker, Rees-Mogg and Farage has been disobeying the referendum vote by trying to make a deal with the EU?
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Matthew, See above for the first bit, though I don’t presume to speak for 17.4m people. It’s not my responsibility to justify or explain why anybody voted how they did.

I am really not bothered what Baker, Rees-Mogg and Farage have to say in 2019 and I had no interest in them ahead of the referendum. I don’t care if they are disobeying the referendum result or not, nor do I see any point in even thinking about it. Sorry, but I am not going to play the endless remainer game of coming with excuse after excuse why the result should be ignored. I simply don’t agree with what hard-remainers have been doing since the referendum.
 
Brian said:
Sorry, but I am not going to play the endless remainer game of coming with excuse after excuse why the result should be ignored. I simply don’t agree with what hard-remainers have been doing since the referendum.
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Out of interest, what were you expecting when you voted leave?
 
Colin Barron said:
Our options to block laws we don't like have diminished, while our contributions increase,
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That piece also says that 'soft power' is important, ie consensus is sought before it even gets to a vote. Soft power was something that, historically, the UK was very good at in the EU. I rather suspect our abilities to command the respect of our EU compatriots, and thus wield that soft power effectively, have diminished of late.
 
Brian said:
Matthew, See above for the first bit, though I don’t presume to speak for 17.4m people. It’s not my responsibility to justify or explain why anybody voted how they did.
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Although given how often in this debate we are reminded of the "will of the people" if the 17.4m covers a plurality of views and opinions then it is at least relevant.
 
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