Power Cables. Are they overhyped? Part II: Electric Boogaloo

[kabayiri]

*Wrong* - The main discussion point is that mains cables have a discernible effect in some environments / conditions for experienced listeners.

Suggestions for possible causes include RFI, vibration, earthing etc etc. That is all - just suggestions.

Acknowledged. The point I picked up on was Alan Sircoms, and Jim pointed to articles to try and examine this.

I do think it's worth focussing on just one cause at a time, and trying to isolate just that factor. Otherwise we are in the realms of too many variables; too many test environments; and the problem would persist.

As weird as it sounds, I'm not that bothered on the outcome. I'm a process and test engineer at heart, so it's method and conditions of test which interest me.

 

[rn82497]

Acknowledged. The point I picked up on was Alan Sircoms, and Jim pointed to articles to try and examine this.

I do think it's worth focussing on just one cause at a time, and trying to isolate just that factor. Otherwise we are in the realms of too many variables; too many test environments; and the problem would persist.

As weird as it sounds, I'm not that bothered on the outcome. I'm a process and test engineer at heart, so it's method and conditions of test which interest me.

Agreed - trying to isolate the various potential contributions would be a sensible approach.

However there is a small cabal on this thread (the Church of Double Blind ABX testers) that are not interested in understanding the root causes.

 

[mattgbell]

Agreed - trying to isolate the various potential contributions would be a sensible approach.

However there is a small cabal on this thread (the Church of Double Blind ABX testers) that are not interested in understanding the root causes.

That's because you have yet to prove that there is something for there to be a root cause of. Until that happens, any discussion of causes is moot.

 

[whatsnext]

Agreed - trying to isolate the various potential contributions would be a sensible approach.

However there is a small cabal on this thread (the Church of Double Blind ABX testers) that are not interested in understanding the root causes.

And there is a silent majority who thankfully do not hear a difference when trying super mains cables.

We do manage to hear analogue, interconnects, speaker cable differences but just cannot experience what others post about with mains, digital cabling.

 

[BE718]

1. MK & Crabtree do NOT have reputations as being poor quality mains plugs.
2. BUT Naim engineers could "HEAR" a problem.
3. Naim engineers traced to route cause and then fixed the issue with a relatively expensive cable for most.

So which is this? Selling a foo cable or fixing an mechanic problem??

Why don't you just give up and enjoy Bank Holiday Monday. ;-)

I DID NOT say that they had a poor reputation.

A simple explanation was stated - the pins were loose, presumably making a high resistance contact. All within the realms of simple electrical theory and quite reasonable. That's not foo.

However if you are stating their solution was expensive, which I did not know, then that is IMO totally unnecessary.

Its not difficult or expensive to engineer a plug with good electrical contacts.

Give up what????? What on earth is your problem?

 

[BE718]

*Wrong* - The main discussion point is that mains cables have a discernible effect in some environments / conditions for experienced listeners.

Suggestions for possible causes include RFI, vibration, earthing etc etc. That is all - just suggestions.

Nope, wrong. The discussion is

Power Cables. Are they overhyped?

Yes.

When you say experienced, do you mean the ones taken in by the marketing technobollocks.

 

[BE718]

Agreed - trying to isolate the various potential contributions would be a sensible approach.

However there is a small cabal on this thread (the Church of Double Blind ABX testers) that are not interested in understanding the root causes.

Simply not true. People are interested, however they are interested in scientific fact and not audiophile anecdote and marketing technobollocks.

 

[sq225917]

Naim does pay specific attention to dealing with external vibration. This extends to the loose coupling on inputs, including the mains, and bayonet mount of the pcb.

I remember their approach to mounting a DAC chip on a felt pad because of it's susceptibility to vibration quite some years ago. So at least they are consistent.

Loose coupling of inputs is bullshit. They chose DIN sockets and they come that way by design to allow an element of self -alignment to take place which compensates for crappy hand soldering of the pins. It wasn't a 'wobble choice', it was simply following on from Quads use of the same 5-pin plugs which allowed them to lock people into their products. Just the same as the 30pin apple ipod connector.

Likewise their cable shaker, that's not there to 'settle cables by de-stressing them to make them sound better', it's simply an accelerated QC process to weed out any poorly soldered joints that would likely break in short order in the field.

Mounting dac chips on felt pads. Yes that would explain why all dac chip manufacturers propose this as an option to improve the THD and SNR of their chips. Oh that's right, they don't because it's audio bullshit not engineering fact.

A little bit of logic goes an awful long way to dispeling a lot of these audio myths (lies).

 

[Joe]

A little bit of logic goes an awful long way to dispeling a lot of these audio myths (lies).

Si.. they are not listening.They never listen. They beleive.

Cable threads always go the same way. They always attract the same people who always come out with the same old bollocks every time.

Cable threads and religion. Hand in glove.

 

[BilliumB]

I DID NOT say that they had a poor reputation.

A simple explanation was stated - the pins were loose, presumably making a high resistance contact. All within the realms of simple electrical theory and quite reasonable. That's not foo.

However if you are stating their solution was expensive, which I did not know, then that is IMO totally unnecessary.

Its not difficult or expensive to engineer a plug with good electrical contacts.

Give up what????? What on earth is your problem?

Maybe I'm wrong again, but I got the impression that the 'loose' pins in the plug was the advantage, allowing them to correctly/better align with the wall socket female connections. I don't think a loose connection between the pins and the connected lead was being referred to.

Cheers. Bill

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Loose coupling of inputs is bullshit. They chose DIN sockets and they come that way by design to allow an element of self -alignment to take place which compensates for crappy hand soldering of the pins.

I can't comment on aspects of what "NAIM did" here as I have no idea about that. However the point (pun) of the original DIN signal plugs/sockets was that they used a 'scraping point contact'. i.e. the contact in the socket was intended to 'scrape' the pin as it was inserted. Then apply enough force when the insertion was ended to ensure it continued to break though any tendency for their to be a non-ohmic layer. And to apply sufficient pressure to keep this so.

The intent was that this would clear away any surface crap and ensure a reliable connection. Having a small contact area was intended to ensure a high contact pressure.

As with any plugs and sockets, this did expect them to be made to the specs. Having used many of them on Armstrong 600 kit I'd say the well made ones generally worked fine for many years. Sadly, the DIN LS connectors weren't so good.

To complicate things the original DIN signal specs IIRC assumed a 'current source'. Which in general isn't how the ended up being used.

 

[kabayiri]

Loose coupling of inputs is bullshit. They chose DIN sockets and they come that way by design to allow an element of self -alignment to take place which compensates for crappy hand soldering of the pins. It wasn't a 'wobble choice', it was simply following on from Quads use of the same 5-pin plugs which allowed them to lock people into their products. Just the same as the 30pin apple ipod connector.

Likewise their cable shaker, that's not there to 'settle cables by de-stressing them to make them sound better', it's simply an accelerated QC process to weed out any poorly soldered joints that would likely break in short order in the field.

Mounting dac chips on felt pads. Yes that would explain why all dac chip manufacturers propose this as an option to improve the THD and SNR of their chips. Oh that's right, they don't because it's audio bullshit not engineering fact.

A little bit of logic goes an awful long way to dispeling a lot of these audio myths (lies).

Tbh, I think it's all marketing, designed to convey an ethos behind the company, a relentless attention to detail perhaps. Without effective marketing even good products can go by the wayside.

I remember a review of an amp, I think it was Onix, where much was made of the fact they used 4 screws to attach the case when only 2 would be needed.

It seems like reviewers love this sort of thing....which maybe is getting back to the original question about over hyped.

 

[Lee T]

I can't comment on aspects of what "NAIM did" here as I have no idea about that. However the point (pun) of the original DIN signal plugs/sockets was that they used a 'scraping point contact'. i.e. the contact in the socket was intended to 'scrape' the pin as it was inserted. Then apply enough force when the insertion was ended to ensure it continued to break though any tendency for their to be a non-ohmic layer. And to apply sufficient pressure to keep this so.

The intent was that this would clear away any surface crap and ensure a reliable connection. Having a small contact area was intended to ensure a high contact pressure.

As with any plugs and sockets, this did expect them to be made to the specs. Having used many of them on Armstrong 600 kit I'd say the well made ones generally worked fine for many years. Sadly, the DIN LS connectors weren't so good.

To complicate things the original DIN signal specs IIRC assumed a 'current source'. Which in general isn't how the ended up being used.

Where do you get this info Jim.

 

[Suffolk Tony]

Loose coupling of inputs is bullshit. They chose DIN sockets and they come that way by design to allow an element of self -alignment to take place which compensates for crappy hand soldering of the pins.

Well, all the Naim DIN plugs and sockets I've looked at, and that's quite a few, have invariably been soldered impeccably.

 

[Lee T]

Exactly. Ragaman simply doesn't understand that designing amplifiers is all about engineering.

Have you or BE designed & built a successful amplifier or am I missing something.

 

[venton]

Loose - as in the pins can align slightly to get a tighter coupling in the socket. Naim did not design this, Crabtree did, and it was only when Naim had to change to MK they heard a difference. They then set out to find out why.
None of this was used as marketing, it was done behind closed doors. Just British engineers doing their job. The details came out from a customer asking questions on their forum.

 

[Julf]

Have you or BE designed & built a successful amplifier or am I missing something.

Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of "successful"?

 

[Lee T]

And what about instrumental and vocal timbre? - i.e. tonal colour?

Or do you think there is a generic piano sound, a generic violin sound, cello sound, trumpet sound, and so on...

Of course if you only listen to electronic instruments, then none of that matters..

How is this a response to the post?

Makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Joe P]

Julf,

Makes a load of lolly, pays not a penny more in tax than is legally necessary and begrudgingly takes staff to lunch around Christmas.

Joe

 

[Lee T]

I do. Thank you for asking. It ensures the sine wave and voltage is constant and of the same quality regardless of the supply to my home. Sounds same day and night. I don't have you on my ignore list but I do ignore most of your excessive number of uninformative posts.

So your system sounds different at night than in the day without this attached.
Are you positive about this.
Do you have proof of this.