Pretty much what I said.
Power Cables. Are they overhyped? Part II: Electric Boogaloo
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Pretty much what I said.
Jonboi
Because Music Matters
And what about instrumental and vocal timbre? - i.e. tonal colour?
Or do you think there is a generic piano sound, a generic violin sound, cello sound, trumpet sound, and so on...
Of course if you only listen to electronic instruments, then none of that matters..
Jonboi
Because Music Matters
When you did the listening/comparing, did you use controlled testing methods to eliminate bias due to psycho-acoustics?
venton
pfm Member
Manufacturers do listening tests on the stock mains leads they supply.
Naim for example preferred Crabtree. Unable to explain the difference they set their engineers on it. They worked out it was the loose coupling of the pins. This led them to develop their powerline upgrade.
Source
"The old Crabtree UK plugs are no longer made - the new ones labelled as "Crabtree" are nothing like the old ones. If you have found NOS then good for you!
Naim switched to MK as the next best thing, and indeed had used them nay times before when supply of the Crabtree plugs had been intermittent. Out of interest, it was some modifications made to the Crabtree plug by some at Naim that eventually led to development of the Powerline plug, albeit the latter went much, much further. It was found that by allowing the pins a small amount of movement it let them align better with the contacts within the UK sockets, giving a larger and more secure contact and commensurately better performance. "
Naim for example preferred Crabtree. Unable to explain the difference they set their engineers on it. They worked out it was the loose coupling of the pins. This led them to develop their powerline upgrade.
Source
"The old Crabtree UK plugs are no longer made - the new ones labelled as "Crabtree" are nothing like the old ones. If you have found NOS then good for you!
Naim switched to MK as the next best thing, and indeed had used them nay times before when supply of the Crabtree plugs had been intermittent. Out of interest, it was some modifications made to the Crabtree plug by some at Naim that eventually led to development of the Powerline plug, albeit the latter went much, much further. It was found that by allowing the pins a small amount of movement it let them align better with the contacts within the UK sockets, giving a larger and more secure contact and commensurately better performance. "
Well there we are, perhaps it's the higher quality plugs that come with the better quality cable that makes for differences to the sound
Better engineered than the "kettle lead" so they sound different'
Mr ED
When you did the listening/comparing, did you use controlled testing methods to eliminate bias due to psycho-acoustics?
Your'e pulling our tit aren't you
2N3055
pfm Member
So it would stand to reason that soldering the internal plug to wire connections including soldering the fuse in place would add to making a larger contact area.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read that solder is not a good idea with mains.
Jonboi
Because Music Matters
whatsnext
Naimless
I do. Thank you for asking. It ensures the sine wave and voltage is constant and of the same quality regardless of the supply to my home. Sounds same day and night. I don't have you on my ignore list but I do ignore most of your excessive number of uninformative posts.
adamdea
You are not a sound quality evaluation device
The listeners, suffering a form of pathetic fallacy. I have written a complaint to the designer
I wonder if he/she will burn a bush for you in response?
I think there is quite a difference between improving a poor quality plug with loose pins and some of the foo that's sold.
rn82497
pfm Member
1. MK & Crabtree do NOT have reputations as being poor quality mains plugs.
2. BUT Naim engineers could "HEAR" a problem.
3. Naim engineers traced to route cause and then fixed the issue with a relatively expensive cable for most.
So which is this? Selling a foo cable or fixing an mechanic problem??
Why don't you just give up and enjoy Bank Holiday Monday. ;-)
Naim does pay specific attention to dealing with external vibration. This extends to the loose coupling on inputs, including the mains, and bayonet mount of the pcb.
I remember their approach to mounting a DAC chip on a felt pad because of it's susceptibility to vibration quite some years ago. So at least they are consistent.
This, however, is *not* the premise being put forward here, which is RFI affecting the performance of the audio system.
It's important not to wander off the hypothesis as to what causes any deterioration in sound.
I remember their approach to mounting a DAC chip on a felt pad because of it's susceptibility to vibration quite some years ago. So at least they are consistent.
This, however, is *not* the premise being put forward here, which is RFI affecting the performance of the audio system.
It's important not to wander off the hypothesis as to what causes any deterioration in sound.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
Posting 767 in this thread is when I refound that:
The "Response to ASA Ruling 19th Sept 2008" gives a contact for 'more details' as being Phil Hansen at Red Sheep Communications.
He pointed me at another document and send me a 'doc' version. He also told me about the "WeavePaperGraphsDoc.pdf" and gave me the URL for it... which now seems broken.
IIRC the doc file was the text of the above PDF. But the PDF has photos of the test setup and graphs of all the results.
If Simon of RA agrees, I'd be happy to make copies of all the stuff I have from them available. But the above is plastered all over with "copyright Ben Duncan" on every graph, etc. It *was* on the web and I gave a URL which worked at the time. It may have been moved simply when they updated their website. But I can't assume I can make it public without their agreement.
The graph I execerpted from the other documet does summarise the same results. But it doesn't really detail or show how the measurements were done.
rn82497
pfm Member
*Wrong* - The main discussion point is that mains cables have a discernible effect in some environments / conditions for experienced listeners.
Suggestions for possible causes include RFI, vibration, earthing etc etc. That is all - just suggestions.
I am pretty familiar with this particular amp.
It is a competent and pleasant budget amp, but limited in power.
It was fine with speakers like Rega ELA, XEL, Naos. Standmount speakers like Dynaudio, Harbeth P3 ESR, M30.1, presented a more challenging load and it did run out of steam a bit.
Comparing with an amp like the Nait XS2, which has a stiffer power supply and better regulation, showed the limitations of the Brio.
Acknowledged. The point I picked up on was Alan Sircoms, and Jim pointed to articles to try and examine this.
I do think it's worth focussing on just one cause at a time, and trying to isolate just that factor. Otherwise we are in the realms of too many variables; too many test environments; and the problem would persist.
As weird as it sounds, I'm not that bothered on the outcome. I'm a process and test engineer at heart, so it's method and conditions of test which interest me.
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